[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[scotty nm35]

I would have overlaid the GTX rather than the GT range.

It looks impressive, but at massive pressure ratios. I don't think a petrol application would get there...

Want to keep it on 98 octane....

Your loss.

[M@&k]

You're right, probably should have done it with the GTX... Might have a go at that later.

Even at lower pressure ratios (e.g. 2.2) seems to envelope both the 3071 and 3076 though. I was quite surprised.

[M@&k]

GTX3071 and EFR7163 plots

Efficiency islands:

GTX 76%

EFR 74%

Speed lines

GTX 110k & 125k

EFR 110k & 130k

[M@&k]

GTX3071 and EFR7163 plots

Efficiency islands:

GTX 76%

EFR 74%

Speed lines

GTX 110k & 125k

EFR 110k & 130k

[scotty nm35]

You can easily see the difference the lightweight turbine makes in the low end...

Efficiency aside, what is the price difference between them? I just picked up a new GTX3071 for $970 (with no rear housing).

[Lithium]

You can easily see the difference the lightweight turbine makes in the low end...

Efficiency aside, what is the price difference between them? I just picked up a new GTX3071 for $970 (with no rear housing).

What are you looking at to see the difference the lightweight turbine makes?

Quick look around Full-Race's site answers the price comparison pretty easily:

EFR7163 = $1855

GTX3071R = $1781

I'd pay the extra $66 in a heartbeat!

[scotty nm35]

You would be getting ripped off then, $1781... lol. Try MTQ, you will obviously save much more than $66 on a 71R, even converted to NZ coin.

Is the EFR worth twice what the Garrett just cost me? I guess not in my case. Now to buy another .82 Tial copy rear housing from Taiwan...

[Lithium]

As always when buying a turbo there are various things to consider. In the situation you mention you are taking a stance based on the following points:

1) You are clearly a Garrett GTX fanboi, nothing wrong with that

2) There is an unusually cheap special going currently with conflicts with the NORMAL market price for a Garrett GTX turbo as used in this comparison, and comes without housings

3) There are reasonable quality non-genuine housings which you are willing to pay for cheaply to go with to get a good turbo for a good price

Whenever buying a turbo, one has to decide the combination between performance potential, price, power, reliability, and general confidence in the product and decide what it is worth it to you in an individual case. In this case the GTX3071R is a roaringly obvious choice for yourself, nothing wrong with that- I'd be tempted if I were on the market for a turbo and looking for a bargain too. It doesn't make the comparison direct, or typical - however. It could be taken a step further and one could ask whether the same GTX3071R is worth it over a Kamak STS Billet TD06SL2-20G or 25G? You have the choice of slightly more power with a bit less response, or slightly less power with a bit more response for cheaper again. The world is your oyster, this thread is about discussing the EFRs though - and as such a bargain bin GTX3071R with a Taiwanese housing on it is cute, but it's wrong.

[scotty nm35]

and as such a bargain bin GTX3071R with a Taiwanese housing on it is cute, but it's wrong.

The Taiwanese stainless housing works well, and once externally gated off the housing will flow spectacularly, they are coming out the back door of the Tial factory after all. I was only commenting on the GTX due to the comparison map supplied above, this is a discussion thread yes? No need to get your panties in a twist, we already know your turbo preferences...

I will seriously look at these EFR's when they shorten them (external gate housings), ditch all the frilly crap hanging off them, and lower the price.

No Garrett affiliation here, I only use GTX's as they are the best option from a piss poor bunch imo... And I like proving people wrong.

[Lithium]

The Taiwanese stainless housing works well, and once externally gated off the housing will flow spectacularly, they are coming out the back door of the Tial factory after all. I was only commenting on the GTX due to the comparison map supplied above, this is a discussion thread yes? No need to get your panties in a twist, we already know your turbo preferences...

I will seriously look at these EFR's when they shorten them (external gate housings), ditch all the frilly crap hanging off them, and lower the price.

No Garrett affiliation here, I only use GTX's as they are the best option from a piss poor bunch imo... And I like proving people wrong.

Trust me, panties are faaaaar from twisted. They have been in the past, but now I'm past caring enough to throw pearls before swine I only post here for selfish reasons... such as if something is amusing me, or if there is something that might broaden my knowledge - the 7163 is quite a different beast so has piqued my interest.

Let us know what the point is that you believe you will be proving people wrong on so we can congratulate you and whoever disagreed can eat their hat and adjust their beliefs, or point and laugh at you - whichever is relevant once the outcome being debated is realised... and also let me know what my turbo preferences are - given as far as I knew I have no general preferences, and am more about finding what suits someone's specific needs best. I'm guessing you've assumed I am all about either Borg Warner EFRs or Forced Performance HTAs because you know I very obviously rate them and other things as having offerings equal or better to GTXs depending on the situation - but if you look at that from a non-GTX fanboi viewpoint you'd realise that saying something might possibly be suited to a non-GTX turbo is not saying that unit or brand is the best thing in the world... as the GTX turbos aren't themselves, either. The GTX-range are good but do not the perfect answers to everyone's questions, and there is no single brand that is - IMHO, but it helps to keep an open mind and understand the pros and cons to the different beasts on the market, if you want to get the best bang for your buck to suit your tastes.

I am at this stage a bit cautious about the EFR7163's suitability to RB25s - particularly the 60lb/min claim, would be nice if BW release a turbine map or someone attaches one to SOMETHING of any kind and leans on it enough to show what the things can punch like in the real world... so far the only numbers I recall seeing from them don't make them stand out as being a useful 50+lb/min turbo, but pretty responsive for the flow they have provided so far. If they can do that extra 5-10lb/min "nicely", then wow.

[M@&k]

Guys, posted before asking if anyone had any thoughts on if this 7163 would fit in stock location given it's bigger than similar sized Garrett units (e.g. 3071 / 3076) ?

May have trodden over my own question by posting the comp map comparison straight after...

Any thoughts on fitment? Also, any guestimates on when the 7163 might be making boost? Comparable to 3071 maybe?

[discopotato03]

I don't see a much point in asking people to guess , a 7163 is what it is and the variables will be the turbine housing and the engine hanging off it .

The fella at Full Race probably has more experience with them than most others so why not ask him to make an informed prediction .

As to people not necessarily wanting things like the recirc valve and boost control solenoid I can see their point of view .

Skyline/RB specific customers generally have these covered by Nissan or other owner options .

I'm not sure if there's much that can be done with the IW turbine housing lengths because BW obviously want the turbine bypass to flow as much as possible because the aim was to have EWG performance with an IWG .

And yes the centre section is long compared to a GT25BB one but to be fair the bearing cartridge is too and they have twice as many turbine and compressor end seals as Honeywells .

Best I can come up with that's it's been said to me that the 7163 should be one of the best 500 wheel pony turbochargers in its size range . It may not in the real world do that much better than a GT/X 3076R with a biggish turbine housing but I think the value is the range it performs over rather than the outright power potential .

If you have been following this units development news you'll know that the producers aim was to raise the bar on what their 6758 can do in the same sized package . It was not a clean sheet unit though the turbine wheel and housings are not just more mm's of the same 6758 .

There's obviously limits to what an EFR B1 cartridge and compressor housing can support but you'd think this time there will be little if any capacity left in them and impressive response/transients from the low inertia mixed flow turbine .

Who knows , maybe we'll see these on shelves soon . Better to guess when than what the exact results will be .

Have a safe any merry one over the festive season , cheers A .

[abr33]

If its anything to compare against flow/pressure/power the 7670 made 320kw at 14 psi

[R_34]

On which engine ?

[GTScotT]

On which engine ?

Full specs on page 162, don't be so lazy.

[R_34]

I posted my previous message with a smartphone. The signatures are'nt active in that case hence my dumb question.

So now I and know it's on a RB25 but I missed something apparently, I still don't know which topic you're reffering to.

Damn noob.

[PN-Mad]

This is a interesting BW system, used on VW transporters, and a 290hp version on MAN trucks. It's called R2S.

Food for thought.

[sucram]

This is called a compound system

More common in tractor pulling to get 90+ psi.

There are some petrol engines running around with this but next to none in Australia. You can also run 1 smaller turbo and one larger. Always wanted to try one but lack motivation.

[PN-Mad]

Yeah, familiar with compound, but interesting that they could condense it into something that will fit easily on a 4 cyl van motor. Also interesting they use the one wastegate flap to control the whole kit.

[discopotato03]

I asked Geoff once what he thought about using an adapter plate/spacer on the RB25 std manifold , basically Twin T3 one side and twin T4 the other . This would be the easiest way to mount this Borg short of getting the T25 flanged housing and making a stainless single inlet T3 flange and welding it on .

The major issue with all these EFRs is that they are so long and the burning question is what sort of compromise does shortening them up make , and will the market accept some compromises to get the engine in next to the turbo if they buy one ...

Would the cartridge suffer if the housing was shorter and the length closed up between the bearings ? Also there seems to be a lot of material from memory at the compressor end , must have a look at the cut aways again .

Everyone is going to compare these B1s to Garrett GT25BB centre sections thought to be fair comparing them to TR30Rs would be a better comparison . Garrett really does have better than GT25/GT30 turbos available but they won't sell them to just anyone . Maybe its time to release that turbine to the aftermarket if they really want market share in the 500ish whp area . With the right sized GTX wheel it could be a good package in the existing outline .

EFRs look like great things but fitting long IWG versions to competition cars isn't the same as production ones - particularly if you don't want it to look obviously modified .

A