[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[scotty nm35]

Why would you put a T4 housing on the stock T3 exhaust manifold?

If you want response and outright power, external gate is the best option.

[discopotato03]

I'm not up to speed here but I don't think they do a TS "T3" flanged turbine housing . The issue could be not enough port volume in the area the gate paths need to be .

I suggested to Geoff a while back using a TS T3/T4 adapter plate doubling as a spacer and he reckons it would work .

Personally I don't think the volute passages are necessarily any larger in T3 vs T4 TS housings but the volume through the flange area certainly is .

Probably the best way to make a T3 TS housing work is to fit two external gates on top of it but not sure how well that'd work if the gas speed was really high . The extra volume in TS T4 housings should make the gas speed lower there and faster in the volute passages themselves .

[Aggroman]

I want my 7670 but gawd damn they are alot of money!! Stupid import tax adding like another $400 to the price

[Piggaz]

What happened to the 6262?

[Aggroman]

its still sitting at powertune.. i was toying with the idea of a BW cause its taking me forever to buy stuff

[dr phil]

Yes my question was I guess aimed at disco's idea of the adaptor plate. But really - t3 single scroll vs t4 twin scroll, for efr7670 level flow, what difference would you expect.

Scotty - would you expect an external gate off the turbine housing to flow better overall than the EFR T3 internal w/g design?

[scotty nm35]

The stock manifold isn't a full split, it would need to be welded to close the split. The idea is to increase the gas speed through the turbine, not slow it down with large T4 castings. Garrett is on the right track with the new split Vband housings imo.

An adapter would work, as long as the split is retained. You don't have much room to work with though. Shame you couldn't get good flowing external gate/s off the spacer...

The BW internal is by far the best design I have seen, but it won't flow as well as a 50mm or two, no.

[dr phil]

Ok cheers mate.

[Full-Race Geoff]

14 would be at about 3500 ish. 3000 makes 10. There is no boost leaks, and the exhaust is 3.5 inch. Its the gate spring being 12 pound. Cant take it. To drive? its a bloody animal. You can pump the throttle it goes from vacuum to 24psi in about half a second! When I had the t04z, I could hold it spinning in whatever gear and just constant throttle, with the efr it just wants limiter all the time with any throttle. I need to put a heavier spring in, and wire ebc to the rpm output so I can have varied gain. Cant have it too harsh coming on boost or we have to pull too much timing. But more up top where it needs to hold harder.

good start! I agree with you, on most RB installations, the stiffer WG spring is usually a good move.

Ah ok, as you say... Sounds like a boost control issue, not actually the turbo being unable to spool that well - sounds like it would be a complete animal with everything dialled in right to get the best from it :-)

+1

Turbine housing question, EFR7670 - what difference in response and outright power would people expect between T3 housing vs T4 housing, both internally gated. On a stock RB25DET Neo, with stock exhaust manifold, would there be much in it?

depending on your setup, and considering that you have a mostly stock motor, the EFR7064 is worthy of consideration. Ive had a few subaru customers go from 7064 to 7670 and back to 7064 lately..

Like discopotato mentioned there may or may not be a benefit converting the stock manifold to twinscroll divided, but anytime you want to bolster the bottom end/midrange using the split pulse configuration does that quite well.

I'm not up to speed here but I don't think they do a TS "T3" flanged turbine housing . The issue could be not enough port volume in the area the gate paths need to be .

I suggested to Geoff a while back using a TS T3/T4 adapter plate doubling as a spacer and he reckons it would work .

Personally I don't think the volute passages are necessarily any larger in T3 vs T4 TS housings but the volume through the flange area certainly is .

Probably the best way to make a T3 TS housing work is to fit two external gates on top of it but not sure how well that'd work if the gas speed was really high . The extra volume in TS T4 housings should make the gas speed lower there and faster in the volute passages themselves .

the reason we do not use T3 flanged housings is due to the bolt-hole clearance. on a T3 you have to use a reasonably large indentation inside the volute (bolt hole nut clearance) and its also much more difficult to fit tools on the hardware this way. Also most fabricators/header builders will tell you that a T4 twinscroll collector has much better geometry than a T3 twinscroll

would you expect an external gate off the turbine housing to flow better overall than the EFR T3 internal w/g design?

the best wastegate is no wastegate.. what are you trying to accomplish that you want to use an external wastegate? In my experience the EFR iwg flows very very well.

edit: there is such a thing as too much wastegate. We recently did some testing with 60mm WG's on two different engines/cars and the results were very disappointing... gave up a lot of powerband compared to the smaller gates we ran previously. both cars are going back to the previous config (dual 38mm-40mm)

Edited June 4, 2014 by Full-Race Geoff

[R_34]

Do you have a boost curve of a 7064 on a RB or any common engine to share ?

I'm possibly interested in the 7064 for my RB20 but I wasn't able to find much info on this EFR, most of users going the 7670 route.

I played with the match-bot but I'm not sure of the boost threshold of this turbo on the RB20. It could be extremely good to rather bad and both setup "looks" realistic on the match-bot.

[Lithium]

edit: there is such a thing as too much wastegate. We recently did some testing with 60mm WG's on two different engines/cars and the results were very disappointing... gave up a lot of powerband compared to the smaller gates we ran previously. both cars are going back to the previous config (dual 38mm-40mm)

Do you have any of these results you can share? There are others who I respect the opinion of who have stated they have found no advantage going between twin wastegates and a single large one - I get people asking me for input but this is an area that while I have some theory on, I've not seen two separate otherwise equivalent setups using twin and single. A mate has an RB30 (aiming for nudging 600whp on E85) which we discussed turbos, manifolds, wastegates etc to great length without spending silly money and the combo settled on is a Airwerks S300SX 8375, .91a/r TS with a small tube twin scroll manifold and single large external wastegate.

The manifold will have divided feeds - the separate banks will only mix flow in any way when the gate opens, will be interesting to see how it all ends up performing... I wouldn't have expected it to be too bad, even if not ideal?

[discopotato03]

R_34 your call but if it were me with an RB20 and really wanted an EFR I'd look harder at the 7163 , I think it would have a more useful rev range unless the absolute top end is your goal .

[Lithium]

Have seen some EFR7163 results now, they are more like what I would have expected in terms of boost threshold - unfortunately there seems to be no magic, they DO produce very very impressive power for a 71mm OD compressor but in dyno overlays with an HTA3076 the HTA actually edges it out... and interestingly, the EFR7163 edges the HTA for peak power.

The transient response (like all EFRs) however is apparently awesome, but that will apply more to the full throttle/race type people and it won't help the low-down pull some might be after for RB20 road-ish cars. I guess there is no getting around the fact that it's a large trim compressor with a 57mm inducer

[discopotato03]

I based my ideas on what Geoff reckons the 7163 is good for power wise which from memory is 500 crank ponies . I'm not really sure what numbers a road race RB20 is typically good for but even that should be impressive in a race weight R32 GTST - provided the usable rev range is wide enough .

Edit : Did a search and it seems typical "good" power from Roys older setups has been about 260 RWKWs . My hack formula is throw in 100 WKWs for drive line loss and you get 360 crank Kw . 500 CHP is around 375 CKWs so I guess if you lost 125 KW to driveline and anything else its sort of ball park .

Larger framed EFRs like the 7064 7670 etc have larger housings so they may let the RB20 be a bit more free reving over a 7163 but how much mid range do you compromise ?

Interested to hear what Geoff thinks , cheers A .

Edited June 5, 2014 by discopotato03

[abr33]

My question is, whats a solution to having a fairly low gate pressure and still hold high?

I mean, I have a low boost setting (14psi) makes about 300 or so kw, great for track. If I put a heavy spring in im not keen on 360++ low boost, which is more than enough on the track I think. But the trade is it'll hopefully pull 400 with ease. I run a greddy 50mm gate and eboost street.

The t04z used to hold 22 solid. I assume this has alot to do with heavy rotating turbo and massive capacity.

[R_34]

The thing is the EFR 7064 bolt to the standard manifold without problem. Using the drawings of a 7064 there SHOULD be more than enough clearance with the manifold runners.

The 7163 needs an other exhaust manifold T25 or T4 flanged, and for peace of mind, heat release in the engine bay and stealthiness I prefer keeping the standard manifold which exclude the 7163.

And my actual turbo is pretty similarly sized as the 7064. I have a "6865" turbo in EFR naming scheme.

I actually have 1.4b a little before 4000 rpm, I can live with that and I'm currently in the process of fitting an 4.363 final drive ratio in my R200 (3.916 standard on EUDM S13) to compensate.

I'm not after a torque monster RB20 (obviously lol ) I just wonder how the 7064 could compare to this boost threshold. I know that boost response will be so much better but in term of rpm to full boost I can't tell.

Ideally I wouldn't sacrifice more low end, the engine start to pull from 3000 rpm and with the 4.363 it will be alright for the road.

And having a lower boost threshold will not give much more torque to the lil RB20, it has an FFP so it doesn't fill it's cylinders at low revs.
Even with the tune, the boost climb below 2000 rpm but the torque doesn't fully follow the boost, so I'm really aiming at the 4k-8k revs range where all the RB20 shine.

[Lithium]

I based my ideas on what Geoff reckons the 7163 is good for power wise which from memory is 500 crank ponies . I'm not really sure what numbers a road race RB20 is typically good for but even that should be impressive in a race weight R32 GTST - provided the usable rev range is wide enough .

Larger framed EFRs like the 7064 7670 etc have larger housings so they may let the RB20 be a bit more free reving over a 7163 but how much mid range do you compromise ?

EFR7163 is a 60lb/min turbo with a 57mm inducer... I'd hope it will make more than 500crank ponies, especially as previously said - it's boost threshold seems worse than an HTA3076. I'll hold judgement until more info comes through, but at this stage - depending on targets, I'd say EFR6758 (shame about the housing options) to EFR7064 range would be what I'd be fitting to an RB20DET from the EFR range.

The thing is the EFR 7064 bolt to the standard manifold without problem. Using the drawings of a 7064 there SHOULD be more than enough clearance with the manifold runners.

And my actual turbo is pretty similarly sized as the 7064. I have a "6865" turbo in EFR naming scheme.

I actually have 1.4b a little before 4000 rpm, I can live with that and I'm currently in the process of fitting an 4.363 final drive ratio in my R200 (3.916 standard on EUDM S13) to compensate.

I'm not after a torque monster RB20 (obviously lol ) I just wonder how the 7064 could compare to this boost threshold. I know that boost response will be so much better but in term of rpm to full boost I can't tell.

6865 - can you explain your turbo spec more, is it a TD06-20G or something? If so, I'd be guessing an EFR7064 would offer similar boost threshold with much better response and flow... be a good move up from a 20G

[discopotato03]

From what I read EFR is expanding its range of turbine housings so they aren't all out yet . Full Race has welded T3 flanges on T2 7163 housings so that's a possibility .

I don't have any interest in GTX3076Rs because I reckon they have more compressor than turbine , closer to GT3582R airflow without the 35 turbines flow rate or comp housings too .

I mentioned 500 crank ponies because Geoff reckons they are hard to beat in this range for response and transients .

For GT30 based I'd rather have a 3076HTA than the GTX version .

[R_34]

My turbo is the kinugawa Highflow, garrett stage 3 turbine mated to a 20g compressor.

[Full-Race Geoff]

If they are patented then that information should be published, do you have any refence of the patent numbers? Would be an interesting read waht they do different.

Ive got nothing to do with BW's intellectual property dept, but if youre truly interested you can find a good amount on google patent searches. Garrett has already been paying BW $32.5million in licensing fees for titanium wheels, so who knows maybe they would work something out in the future? this is purely conjecture as it's way outside my area of expertise: http://www.theoaklandpress.com/general-news/20110516/honeywell-agrees-to-pay-borg-warner-325m-licensing-fees

I'm possibly interested in the 7064 for my RB20 but I wasn't able to find much info on this EFR, most of users going the 7670 route. I played with the match-bot but I'm not sure of the boost threshold of this turbo on the RB20. It could be extremely good to rather bad and both setup "looks" realistic on the match-bot.

for a 2.0L RB20 targetting road racing and respnse - the 6758 or 7163 would be the perfect fit. the 7064 is a great turbo also and may be a direct fit, but 7163 is really an exceptional match for 2.0L displacement and easy to weld a flange or adaptor on the turbine housing. 7670 is too large for your application in my opinion

I don't believe TS is black magic but sized properly it does work . Mitsubishi and Subaru has it as OE .

..as does mercedes, BMW, hyundai, kia, chevy/cadillac, dodge, mini cooper, audi, Ford, Peugeot, Renault... pretty much every automaker that wants zero turbo lag on small displacement turbo engines

i was toying with the idea of a BW cause its taking me forever to buy stuff

we've got all the EFR's in stock if youre interested to try one even the 7163's are in stock!

t3 single scroll vs t4 twin scroll, for efr7670 level flow, what difference would you expect.

i'd guesstimate the difference on a dyno to be 400-500rpm. In Real-world driving conditions, the difference can be even more drastic...