[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[Missileman]

Also have an RB25 Stagea awd manual. With a 6758 .6 IW. Daily driver. Response is better than factory.

Would like to see a dynograph of that

[HarrisRacing]

Heres my data.

First tune, ran out of dyno time. Fought boost control for a long time then just went to open loop on Haltech. I should have played with that more before dynoing. Boost on graph is PSI * 10 (for scaling purposes) and is straight from the log. It literally rained while we dyno'd so 100% humidity and 83 deg F ambient.

This is STOCK Haltech timing advance (untouched). Only would knock at 20 psi at 4400 rpms during spike. I'm DEFINITELY losing boost response on this because the logs with the wastegate hose pulled are showing 21 psi at 4100 rpms (as opposed to my lazy 4400 that was kinda of spiking at first).

Anyway, pumpgas 93 (with the 10% ethanol they have in my area).

2.75L BC stroker

New N1 block 86mm bores

tomei poncam A

6boost manifold - divided for IWG EFR

8374 EFR .92 IWG divided

ported head

SS +.5mm valves

squish pads removed

Hypertune V2

stock intercooler

I WILL be ordering the high boost cannister and getting boost leveled out at 16-17 psi for base and using closed loop for tuning. CAR IS AN ABSOLUTE ANIMAL!!!

I bet it has 130 mph in it right now!

Also it should be noted on STOCK intercooler I'm seeing 115 deg F when hammering through the gears (all the way through 4th) on the highway. It was AT LEAST 125 on the dyno every pull. Air temps drop drastically when on it...ironically they increase while you cruise (or sit in traffic). Makes sense as all that is moving is IDLE air. But under load at 18 psi and this power level the stock intercooler is keeping up well so far. Temps pretty much drop the whole time you are in boost. NICE EFFICIENT TURBO HELPS I AM SURE!!

[BoostdR]

Thought about water/meth injection?

Is they Hypertune single throttle or multi? Single will hurt response a smidge.

[HarrisRacing]

Thought about water/meth injection?

Is they Hypertune single throttle or multi? Single will hurt response a smidge.

There is no response issue whatsoever. The single 90mm hypertune is not the issue.

The problem is the medium boost cannister for the internal gate on the EFR starts "cracking" open around 9-10 psi...as you adjust it tighter this number goes up slightly, I'm having to keep the port open on the solenoid so long that when it finally comes into boost the boost controller was making it overshoot the target boost at 4500 rpms. If I run JUST wastegate with no boost supply to the cannister it will hit 23 or so at 4100 rpms (this shows what the turbo and engine will do because effectively the gate is held shut. Trust me it's coming on strong, I was tweaking the boost duty cycle in the haltech for it to try to smooth the boost spike (and then resultant FALL) with moderate success - the pull attached is by far the best, but even 2-3% duty cycle changes at rpms were causing drops and spikes. Also on top end the exhaust backpressure is blowing the gate open so I'm dropping boost there too. My duty cycle chart looks silly.

Geoff with full race warned me of this already (previously in this thread).

I'm going to get the high boost cannister and set it to "crack" at 16-17 just on the wastegate and supply hose (no solenoid spill) then try to get it to hold a solid 20 to redline. When this happens...hello 500 whp and hello 20 psi at 4100 rpms. It's going to be stupid. Between 7-8k rpms the car gained nearly 100 whp going from 12.8 psi to 17. I think I have that last 50 or so whp on pump gas at 19-20 psi. If not, the car may need bigger cams.

ALSO I have not TOUCHED the timing. That will help everywhere as well.

Also have not TOUCHED the cams. More changes.

I'll get a video of a little drive today for you so you can see how it spools and drives. "Responsive" is the word of the day

[Meathead]

There is no response issue whatsoever. The single 90mm hypertune is not the issue.

The problem is the medium boost cannister for the internal gate on the EFR starts "cracking" open around 9-10 psi...as you adjust it tighter this number goes up slightly, I'm having to keep the port open on the solenoid so long that when it finally comes into boost the boost controller was making it overshoot the target boost at 4500 rpms. If I run JUST wastegate with no boost supply to the cannister it will hit 23 or so at 4100 rpms (this shows what the turbo and engine will do because effectively the gate is held shut. Trust me it's coming on strong, I was tweaking the boost duty cycle in the haltech for it to try to smooth the boost spike (and then resultant FALL) with moderate success - the pull attached is by far the best, but even 2-3% duty cycle changes at rpms were causing drops and spikes. Also on top end the exhaust backpressure is blowing the gate open so I'm dropping boost there too. My duty cycle chart looks silly.

Geoff with full race warned me of this already (previously in this thread).

I'm going to get the high boost cannister and set it to "crack" at 16-17 just on the wastegate and supply hose (no solenoid spill) then try to get it to hold a solid 20 to redline. When this happens...hello 500 whp and hello 20 psi at 4100 rpms. It's going to be stupid. Between 7-8k rpms the car gained nearly 100 whp going from 12.8 psi to 17. I think I have that last 50 or so whp on pump gas at 19-20 psi. If not, the car may need bigger cams.

ALSO I have not TOUCHED the timing. That will help everywhere as well.

Also have not TOUCHED the cams. More changes.

I'll get a video of a little drive today for you so you can see how it spools and drives. "Responsive" is the word of the day

Do yourself a favour and get a 2 port double acting actuator and a 4 port Mac valve. Lots of tuners swear by them now.

http://www.turbosmartdirect.com/Product-Categories/Turbo-Specific-Actuators/Borg-Warner-EFR-Twin-Port-B1-Single-Scroll-14psi_2.html

[HarrisRacing]

Do yourself a favour and get a 2 port double acting actuator and a 4 port Mac valve. Lots of tuners swear by them now.

http://www.turbosmartdirect.com/Product-Categories/Turbo-Specific-Actuators/Borg-Warner-EFR-Twin-Port-B1-Single-Scroll-14psi_2.html

Perfect. Thank you!

I did get the haltech to start running closed loop boost with pretty great success so far.

I didn't realize you can make the closed loop a table just like the open loop. Basically ended up taking my open loop numbers for 17 psi and making them the higher boost table. I didn't play much with it yet but for sure had greater response than before and looks like it will hold more boost up top!

But yes that actuator should solve a lot of my problems.

Oh and this.

https://youtu.be/BVYG2ziS9IM

[Meathead]

Perfect. Thank you!

I did get the haltech to start running closed loop boost with pretty great success so far.

I didn't realize you can make the closed loop a table just like the open loop. Basically ended up taking my open loop numbers for 17 psi and making them the higher boost table. I didn't play much with it yet but for sure had greater response than before and looks like it will hold more boost up top!

But yes that actuator should solve a lot of my problems.

Oh and this.

I have a G4+ and run open loop with a 3D duty cycle table which is a sort of pseudo closed loop and works really well. much easier to set up.

[sneakey pete]

Looks pretty fun.
Got any logs of boost vs rpm vs tps vs time for that or just general spirited driving Patrick?

Pete, have you read much on the evoM forum? Some guys that went 7670, a lot go "bugger it, I'm going 8374". The guys that go 8374 step up to the 9180. It's quite funny to watch.

i'm working on it... Tis an interesting read. Started at 101 and upto about 140 now

If you want 400 KW and that's it a 7670 might be the go. But reaper on here is cracking gates at around 4300 RPM (from memory) on a stock engine (it does have the baby v cam), makes 470 kW using a 8374/1.05. You'll have a reasonably high comp 2.8.

I don't particularly feel the need for anything over 400kw's, no. but yes, there's some pretty good results with the 8374, its just a question of how much response is sacrificed, and additionally, there's the benfit that I could probably go .92 IWG for the 8374 and save money/simplify things a lot.
I came across a comparison between the 7670 EWG and 8374 IWG on a pair of evo's in that thread which did show some pretty significant differences, but that was different engines/dynos etc, and they're smaller than my 2.8.

More research is required

Speaking to a few guys that have these things, the dyno graph doesn't give a true indication of how they drive. How soon are you going to make the decision?

Yeah, there was a nice log of someone over there doing a gear change showing boost recovered in about 3/4 of a second after 100% TPS was re applied (and about 1/2 second for 80% of boost). Pretty impressive.

The sooner I can get stuff ordered the better but at the same time i'm not ordering until i'm 100% sure that I've picked the right setup.

[HarrisRacing]

Here is the data for the gear change from 3rd to 4th. Sorry I'm logging ALL channels now so resolution isn't as good as it could be.

My brother also short shifted because the tachometer is off a good bit.

[Mick_o]

The power curve goes form very little to very much in a short space of time. That is the definition of on off. Note i didn't say it was bad, also note I also commented how f**king amazing it is having 350+kw for an entire 3500rpm band a few posts later. No need to rant it makes you look silly; the facts are out there and are speaking for themselves, the real issue is the nitty gritty details of what particular size/setup I want to grab

Pete im obviously passionate about this stuff so i feel just in having a rant

I have done ALOT of research, driven and worked on ALOT of amazing expensive well sorted cars in both twin and single forms and i can tell you that the singles i have driven out performed the twins in response/power and throttle response.

Thing is you say im making myself look silly mate yet all the points i make about singles vs twins none of you "twins guys" can produce any data to prove me wrong?

You say this turbo goes from nothing to everything? Yet it makes 250kw @ 4000 & goes on to make another 300kw up top. No twins EVER do that.

[Mick_o]

If you were looking at Evo results Pete even though they are a smaller motor evos bring on turbos insanely well so 2.2-2.3L strokers are probably alot more comparable than you may think

[Mick_o]

Double post...

Edited May 29, 2016 by Mick_o

[sneakey pete]

Last few posts i've been asking which EFR I should get...

Move on from bashing on twins and help me decide if I want a 7670 or 8374. Main thing is I want the car to be fun to drive in the twisties

[r32-25t]

Singles are shit

[Mick_o]

Singles are shit

See this is all the data ya typical twin turbo tosser can come up with lol.

I have a 7670 with 1.05 rear for my 2L with mivec and i expect that to be alive before 4K so i believe the 1.05 8374 would probably have you all in around 4000rpm Pete. Don't be scared off the 1.05 thinking it will make your laggy mate

[HarrisRacing]

No ego here. After pulling down the twins during my rebuild I decided I was going single no matter what.

I initally thought to use a smaller single when I was thinking of staying 2.6 and actually inquired about the 7670. Geoff with full race gave great advice on not using the 7670 due to potential to overspin on an rb26 (even on pumpgas) and since I'm stroker it would only complicate the matter. After running the match bot models he's dead right. He was also correct in that the 8374 is an awesome fit for an rb26/28 stroker with basic flow mods.

I know I'm just scraping the surface of the turbo now and have plenty left in my tune but I can tell you that drivability is insanely good and top end power is just incredible. I set redline at 8k on mine so far but power is still climbing at that power...so yes the 7670 could probably be fine on a STOCK rb26 if limiting your rpms and dead set on sticking with pump gas.

I will run the numbers on match bot for you if you give me some information about your build.

[r32-25t]

See this is all the data ya typical twin turbo tosser can come up with lol.

I have a 7670 with 1.05 rear for my 2L with mivec and i expect that to be alive before 4K so i believe the 1.05 8374 would probably have you all in around 4000rpm Pete. Don't be scared off the 1.05 thinking it will make your laggy mate

lol I'm on who cares, each to their own side of things. There's no denying the results from singles are great but my twins are doing everything I want.

I was just hoping to ruffle a few feathers while I was a sleep

[sneakey pete]

No ego here. After pulling down the twins during my rebuild I decided I was going single no matter what.

I initally thought to use a smaller single when I was thinking of staying 2.6 and actually inquired about the 7670. Geoff with full race gave great advice on not using the 7670 due to potential to overspin on an rb26 (even on pumpgas) and since I'm stroker it would only complicate the matter. After running the match bot models he's dead right. He was also correct in that the 8374 is an awesome fit for an rb26/28 stroker with basic flow mods.

I know I'm just scraping the surface of the turbo now and have plenty left in my tune but I can tell you that drivability is insanely good and top end power is just incredible. I set redline at 8k on mine so far but power is still climbing at that power...so yes the 7670 could probably be fine on a STOCK rb26 if limiting your rpms and dead set on sticking with pump gas.

I will run the numbers on match bot for you if you give me some information about your build.

Yeah i've been meaning to sit down and learn how to use their matching program but i've had a cold the last few days and its just seemed to hard

If you don't mind running the numbers and giving me a rundown that would be neat.

Build is pretty much 2.8L stroker, so 2740cc, 9.5:1 ish compression ratio (very interesting pistons, got to have a gaze at them thismorning), running 260 degree 11mm lift cams. Fuel will be E70. What else is needed for it?

Power goal wise, 400kw is enough, as much response as possible is the more important factor for the type of driving I do, on the street and on country roads.

[HarrisRacing]

Yeah i've been meaning to sit down and learn how to use their matching program but i've had a cold the last few days and its just seemed to hard [emoji14]

If you don't mind running the numbers and giving me a rundown that would be neat.

Build is pretty much 2.8L stroker, so 2740cc, 9.5:1 ish compression ratio (very interesting pistons, got to have a gaze at them thismorning), running 260 degree 11mm lift cams. Fuel will be E70. What else is needed for it?

Power goal wise, 400kw is enough, as much response as possible is the more important factor for the type of driving I do, on the street and on country roads.

It would be silly imo to put anything smaller than an 8374 on that engine!

You have a touch more lift on the cams but our builds are almost identical. You planning on running ethanol with the higher compression will likely see full boost at 3800 rpms or less even. I have seen 20.1 psi at 4077 rpms trust me it will drive incredibly well!

I ran the numbers. Mine are almost spot on so far. Search "matchbot"

[usmair]

Yeah i've been meaning to sit down and learn how to use their matching program but i've had a cold the last few days and its just seemed to hard

If you don't mind running the numbers and giving me a rundown that would be neat.

Build is pretty much 2.8L stroker, so 2740cc, 9.5:1 ish compression ratio (very interesting pistons, got to have a gaze at them thismorning), running 260 degree 11mm lift cams. Fuel will be E70. What else is needed for it?

Power goal wise, 400kw is enough, as much response as possible is the more important factor for the type of driving I do, on the street and on country roads.

8374 for sure

you'll have 30psi before 4000rpm if everything on the setup is well sorted (e.g. manifold, cams, gears etc etc)

i've orderd my cams, cam gears, springs/retainers. Manifold should be here this week too.

Then its off to get the turbo put on, fuel wiring, custom exhaust and tune!

many excites