[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[mr skidz]

While you did add some value (the data would be interesting to compare) and SAU is definitely full of silly comments you can't really complain too much when the majority of the off topic/silly comments in that last part of the thread were from yourself.  Keep it real, man - this is a Borg Warner EFR thread... not a thread people who to come to read want to find posts going on and on about pump gas, stock engine bays and antiquated Garrett bolt on turbos and trying to blame tuning on them performing like nuggets.  If you are going to carry on like that then of course you're going to get some stick.

my off topic silly comments you're referring to that I made to DOSE were light hearted tounge n cheek comment as I know he tunes cars, it was a tuner to tuner joke[emoji16]so I'm cool with him.
apologies if it wasn't portrayed that way.

I'm not cool with people wasting my time with comments like "well my friends sisters boyfriends car is faster than yours from 4k to 8k"

Reasons for posting logs is everyone's trying to jump on the response bandwagon which is a good thing.

I myself am curious as to "how much" more responsive The Borg Warner alternatives are?

so the logs are up warts and all if there's one out there that doesn't have vct and is of similar nature I'd be happy to see the results.
I'm not in competition with anyone I build my car for me I'm the only person I need to impress micko

[Lithium]

13 minutes ago, mr skidz said:

my off topic silly comments you're referring to that I made to DOSE were light hearted tounge n cheek comment as I know he tunes cars, it was a tuner to tuner jokeso I'm cool with him.
apologies if it wasn't portrayed that way.

Reasons for posting logs is everyone's trying to jump on the response bandwagon which is a good thing.

I myself am curious as to "how much" more responsive The Borg Warner alternatives are?

so the logs are up warts and all if there's one out there that doesn't have vct and is of similar nature I'd be happy to see the results.
I'm not in competition with anyone I build my car for me I'm the only person I need to impress 

Ah ok, missed that subtlety - damn tuna humour flying over my head.

I fully associate with the clear data thing and think it would be beneficial if there is some good data which comes through, I guess that's a tricky thing about Reaper's car is that his had VCam and I'm not sure how much that part of it contributed to the epic performance it delivered but I am very confident that if he had been able to deliver some logs on how it spooled it'd have cleared some questions up, though while his setup seems potentially a bit less refined and definitely more basic I'm very interested to see how @HarrisRacing's logging goes if or when he shares his.  Its only stock stroke as well so it'd definitely be at a disadvantage compare to yours.  You can't go making excuses about the engine bay looking low key or whatever though, that's completely irrelevant as has been said a few times.  One of the big things about going this direction is eliminating the weak points in a configuration, this is one of the reasons a single turbo is ftmfw.

ACTUALLY... @Subboy, can we convince you to data log a couple of pulls from low rpm to show how your EFR8374 spools at some point??  

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2016 by Lithium

[HarrisRacing]

Ah ok, missed that subtlety - damn tuna humour flying over my head.

I fully associate with the clear data thing and think it would be beneficial if there is some good data which comes through, I guess that's a tricky thing about Reaper's car is that his had VCam and I'm not sure how much that part of it contributed to the epic performance it delivered but I am very confident that if he had been able to deliver some logs on how it spooled it'd have cleared some questions up, though while his setup seems potentially a bit less refined and definitely more basic I'm very interested to see how @HarrisRacing's logging goes if or when he shares his.  Its only stock stroke as well so it'd definitely be at a disadvantage compare to yours.  You can't go making excuses about the engine bay looking low key or whatever though, that's completely irrelevant as has been said a few times.  One of the big things about going this direction is eliminating the weak points in a configuration, this is one of the reasons a single turbo is ftmfw.

ACTUALLY... @Subboy, can we convince you to data log a couple of pulls from low rpm to show how your EFR8374 spools at some point??  

 

 

 

Not stock stroke. BC stroker 79mm. 2.75L on brand new N1 block 86mm pistons. My car is apparently not as responsive as most but then again I have cut squish pads and I'm on hypertune V2 90mm (which is just way overkill until you are over 800HP imo). Also I'm on valve relived pistons and i cut the head for high lift cams as well (everything you need to try to max a 9180 later). For now I'm on tomei poncam A's to top all that off. Mine is all setup for top end but I've got the small IWG turbine...kinda backwards in hindsight. Doing it all over I'd go flat tops and leave squish pads for a street motor. Also I would go higher compression ratio. I also want to note I'm on 3" exhaust right now!

As soon as I get my low voltage issues solved I'll be back on tuning. I can't keep my voltages solid so it's hurting my injector timing which is throwing my tune totally out of whack. May be time to run all new wiring off of the alternator because since this issue popped up in chasing all kind of fuel issues.

And I think the -5 logging carries merit for comparison purposes...if he's matching my current boost threshold (which he actually is very close) and is putting down similar dyno numbers and speeds on the same boost then I think proposing the other data i requested for comparison would greatly help others decide if and when to make the jump. When I sort this voltage (and resultant fuel) issue out I'll move to meth and see if the -5s keep up then around the 24-26 psi mark.

Also regarding the V-cam. Every dyno and sales point says it pretty much adds ANOTHER 500-700 rpms on top of everything and will make more power everywhere. I totally believe it.

My next motor will be a VCam 3.2-3.4L stroker...no doubt. I might not even swap turbos and just have a disgustingly fast street car. Limit rpms to 8k and probably have a car that traps 130mph on pumpgas.

[Lithium]

48 minutes ago, HarrisRacing said:

Not stock stroke. BC stroker 79mm. 2.75L on brand new N1 block 86mm pistons. My car is apparently not as responsive as most but then again I have cut squish pads and I'm on hypertune V2 90mm (which is just way overkill until you are over 800HP imo). Also I'm on valve relived pistons and i cut the head for high lift cams as well (everything you need to try to max a 9180 later). For now I'm on tomei poncam A's to top all that off. Mine is all setup for top end but I've got the small IWG turbine...kinda backwards in hindsight. Doing it all over I'd go flat tops and leave squish pads for a street motor. Also I would go higher compression ratio. I also want to note I'm on 3" exhaust right now!

As soon as I get my low voltage issues solved I'll be back on tuning. I can't keep my voltages solid so it's hurting my injector timing which is throwing my tune totally out of whack. May be time to run all new wiring off of the alternator because since this issue popped up in chasing all kind of fuel issues.

And I think the -5 logging carries merit for comparison purposes...if he's matching my current boost threshold (which he actually is very close) and is putting down similar dyno numbers and speeds on the same boost then I think proposing the other data i requested for comparison would greatly help others decide if and when to make the jump.

Oh right, from your numbers I assumed you were running a 2.6 - I've only just showed back up in this thread so behind the ball.  That's interesting, but could show how much the complete setup can have a big influence one way or another on things.  Still, will be interesting to see how they compare.

[mr skidz]

Not stock stroke. BC stroker 79mm. 2.75L on brand new N1 block 86mm pistons. My car is apparently not as responsive as most but then again I have cut squish pads and I'm on hypertune V2 90mm (which is just way overkill until you are over 800HP imo). Also I'm on valve relived pistons and i cut the head for high lift cams as well (everything you need to try to max a 9180 later). For now I'm on tomei poncam A's to top all that off. Mine is all setup for top end but I've got the small IWG turbine...kinda backwards in hindsight. Doing it all over I'd go flat tops and leave squish pads for a street motor. Also I would go higher compression ratio. I also want to note I'm on 3" exhaust right now!

As soon as I get my low voltage issues solved I'll be back on tuning. I can't keep my voltages solid so it's hurting my injector timing which is throwing my tune totally out of whack. May be time to run all new wiring off of the alternator because since this issue popped up in chasing all kind of fuel issues.

And I think the -5 logging carries merit for comparison purposes...if he's matching my current boost threshold (which he actually is very close) and is putting down similar dyno numbers and speeds on the same boost then I think proposing the other data i requested for comparison would greatly help others decide if and when to make the jump. When I sort this voltage (and resultant fuel) issue out I'll move to meth and see if the -5s keep up then around the 24-26 psi mark.

Also regarding the V-cam. Every dyno and sales point says it pretty much adds ANOTHER 500-700 rpms on top of everything and will make more power everywhere. I totally believe it.

My next motor will be a VCam 3.2-3.4L stroker...no doubt. I might not even swap turbos and just have a disgustingly fast street car. Limit rpms to 8k and probably have a car that traps 130mph on pumpgas.

We have the same cams too[emoji5]

I'm 2.738 litre

Your 3 inch exhaust shouldn't be an issue if your external Gate

And your voltage issue shouldn't be a problem that can easily be tuned around I can help you with that if you like what are the lowest voltages your seeing.

Pm me so we dont upset anyone

[iruvyouskyrine]

lolwhat. Why not just fix the voltage drop issue? Seems dumb to tune around something that is obviously an issue

[Tom Tucker]

On ‎27‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 7:44 PM, Roy said:

Am i missing something? What mods to the engine? That leaves any SR20 7670 result I have seen for dead!

Yeah, engine is stroked, plus it might have some head work... However, spool on a standard 2L 4G63 isn't that far behind.

 

[mr skidz]

lolwhat. Why not just fix the voltage drop issue? Seems dumb to tune around something that is obviously an issue

seems dumb, really how?

Go into detail please.

Do you even know what you're talking about?

^that's a genuine question?

[sneakey pete]

There might be some missed context here as he has posted more info on his build thread, he's seeing low 12s/11's voltage wise with the car, there's a more major issue going on that needs to be solved.

[mr skidz]

There might be some missed context here as he has posted more info on his build thread, he's seeing low 12s/11's voltage wise with the car, there's a more major issue going on that needs to be solved.

Ok fair call some peoples idea of low might be 13 flat but if it's that low it needs to be addressed I'm about to read the info now but the main concern for me would be as a tuner is that the AFR is on it's Target no matter what the voltage displays and that's not a hard fix at all that's the main concern the engine safety is priority so the battery can do whatever the hell it wants as long as the AFR is on Point

[Roy]

22 hours ago, Lithium said:

Not too surprising, no matter how you cut it - a 7670 is quite a large turbo for an SR20, I guess with the hype you'd be forgiven to hope for it to be overall lively but I'd say most people would expect a GTX3076R to be a dog until near 4500rpm on an SR20 so despite being one of the closest equivalents it still seems rough if you have to wait till after 4000 for real life with some a baller setup... I guess it depends on what you are comparing to.   Or are you saying it was lazy even considered it is a 400wkw capable setup?  

The EFR7163 seems like a neat wee donk, I'm still something of a doubter in terms of the magic that Full-Race put it across as HOWEVER it does seem like a very good beast as well - there are a couple of SRs which seem to go ok, have a mate who has one on a 4G63 but he's getting messed around by people who are meant to be finishing the build... should have been running ages ago.

Well next to an SR20 running an XR6 turbo it wasnt all that flash....i think the thing with EFR turbos do they really perform that well on 20-22psi? They seem to like 26-32psi which on my Cossie runnin 98 i am not keen on running hugh boost, even though it runs 28psi now. 

[Lithium]

9 hours ago, mr skidz said:

Ok fair call some peoples idea of low might be 13 flat but if it's that low it needs to be addressed I'm about to read the info now but the main concern for me would be as a tuner is that the AFR is on it's Target no matter what the voltage displays and that's not a hard fix at all that's the main concern the engine safety is priority so the battery can do whatever the hell it wants as long as the AFR is on Point

I see you are laying on the being a tuner thing quite thick, so respectfully while I'm no professional tuner I *have* dabbled somewhat and I tend to take the angle as a "ch00ner" that it's worth making sure that everything you are working with is doing their job properly and if there is some outlier from the norm, voltage being one of the more serious areas to be misbehaving when dealing with EFI tuning imho - then it's very much worth investigating what is causing it.  Feel free to call or think of me as a rookie as I am compared to many, but building on a shaky foundation seems like a silly idea - no matter how insignificant the shakiness seems.  It may not be what you think it is, and if you build a huge complex structure based on a shaky foundation it's very possible that sooner or later show it's true nature and provide much bigger headaches than if you just did it right in the first place.

42 minutes ago, Roy said:

Well next to an SR20 running an XR6 turbo it wasnt all that flash....i think the thing with EFR turbos do they really perform that well on 20-22psi? They seem to like 26-32psi which on my Cossie runnin 98 i am not keen on running hugh boost, even though it runs 28psi now. 

OK - I'm surprised you decided to blame the turbo as opposed to consider that there is something not working right with the overall setup, considering the overwhelming info and collective experience on EFR turbos that indicate what you have experienced is WAY outside of usual.  Everything working right and trying to set low expectations I'd say that you should expect an EFR8374 to feel at least SLIGHTLY better than an XR6 Turbo, in regards to the EFR7670 - if you ignored the fact that it has really nice aero and an ultra light turbine etc and just compared like for like it is a significantly smaller turbo.  All other things being equal it should spool faster and be more responsive, noticably so.  Same goes if you put a GTX3076R in place of the XR6 turbo - but all evidence points to the EFR being very noticably more responsive than a GTX3076R.

Given you've decided to blame the turbo, you seem like you might be measuring a lot of the stuff in here as being fanboism and just rushing for the latest greatest - that's not how I roll, I just look for the best ways of making good performance and try and work out if or what isn't working right - I did spend a period of time in this thread warning people off EFRs due to the supply and reliability concerns which popped up in the first years after they were released, I'll call a spade a spade and be conservative and polite about it.  What you are saying doesn't add up and if I was involved in a car which had an EFR7670 which didn't look flash compared to a stock XR6 turbo then I'd treat it exactly the same as if I was tuning an RB20 with a 20G and it wouldn't make over 160kw, I'd not say that the RB20 can't make over 160kw nor would I say that 20Gs can't flow that much, the odds are something isn't right and there is a lot of improvement to be had by ironing it out. 

In terms of "not performing well at low boost" that's an interesting one, never heard of that - I know I've heard of people throwing that kind of thing around for Precision and other turbos at times but it's kindof a non-thing, you can't really say that about a turbo as a general term.  I can't answer that question as I have no idea what power you're looking for, what your engine/setups flow will be like etc so I really can't say whether it would perform or not on your setup.  

Generally speaking the EFR efficiency ranges seem to "scale" fairly well through the pressure ratios until you reach the max safe flow they can provide, so if it will perform at 32psi without choking then it should also be fine at 20psi.  If you engine outflows that then you've not matched the turbo correctly, the same applies whenever selecting a turbo.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Lithium

[GTR_JOEY]

On 27 July 2016 at 0:25 PM, reaper said:

Sale post is now up if anyone is interested.

 

And now it's mine ?

will be bolted to a 2.9, results in a couple of months.

 

thanks Brett!

[reaper]

I know you will enjoy Joey. Going to be crazy on the 2.9 which can take full advantage of it!

[Piggaz]

Wooooooo!!!!!

another one to add to the EFR crew haha!!

[Lithium]

Hahaha that's awesome!! Was looking forward to seeing what the S300SX could do but this is a more than acceptable alternative

When's the next MickBBQ? Lol

[Piggaz]

33 minutes ago, Lithium said:

Hahaha that's awesome!! Was looking forward to seeing what the S300SX could do but this is a more than acceptable alternative

When's the next MickBBQ? Lol

Book another flight!

[mr skidz]

You didn't really need to write all that for me lithium?

None of it really went anywhere, especially when I agree with what saying.

In terms of your comments about this "shaky foundation" I see this as advantage and no I'm not going into detail here on a thread and I don't mean to sound rude but I really don't have the time.

if you're that curious you can call me I honestly don't have time to explain all this here.

But yes harris has a bug to sort and no doubt he will sort it, my concern is there is correct rail pressures and afr's.

Because we know if either stray it's all over very quickly and not only will he have a bug to sort he'll have an engine to build.

Carry on..[emoji106]

[Lithium]

55 minutes ago, Piggaz said:

Book another flight!

But when!?

32 minutes ago, mr skidz said:

I don't mean to sound rude but I really don't have the time.

if you're that curious you can call me I honestly don't have time to explain all this here.

Carry on..

Fair enough - may hit you up when I need the Dunning-Kruger effect further demonstrated sometime.

[r32-25t]

So the fact that because of voltage variances the injector opening time changes and the fuel pump changes flow rate is actually a good thing?