[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[reaper]

Tial MVR 44mm from Full Race with their branding on them. Ideally I want to keep them as ill need them for the new setup but meh if they have to go to sell the setup then so be it.

[Mick_o]

f**ken hell Brett! Lol! ?

Not wasting any time i see?! 

[NISR32.5]

Ahh all good. I grabbed some twin 40mm turbosmarts for my setup but don't have manifold or anything else yet. Thought you might want to sell me everything without the turbo [emoji12]

[reaper]

I might be able to sell everything bar the turbo as I have someone else that is keen on the turbo but depends on money! Putting up the kit up for sale now

[s2d4]

What's everyone's take on the rpm limits of these turbos?

[reaper]

Sale post is now up if anyone is interested.

 

[Roy]

On 7/26/2016 at 6:27 PM, Tom Tucker said:

I can't remember if I posted my E85 results. Anyway, here it is, just to echo the praise for the EFRs:

7670 T4 1.05 on my Evo V.

~250kw at 4000rpm...

670nm of torque at a bit over 4000rpm.

It goes ok haha

 

 

Am i missing something? What mods to the engine? That leaves any SR20 7670 result I have seen for dead!

[JustinP]

On 7/25/2016 at 4:28 PM, Lithium said:

Hi all!   I've not really been active on this forum for some time and although I lurk in to read bits and pieces of interest I don't really think of this as a forum I'm part of but I once was and I did start this thread a good 6 years ago with idea that a potential game changer for people playing with Skylines was on the horizon and it'd be worth discussing or looking into.... I've been privy to lots of opinions and data from what other people have done but beyond thrashing around a mates Toyota GT86 with an EFR6758 (which isn't THAT adventurous a combination) and have forwarded on a certain amount into this thread in the years past but I'd not personally been in a solid EFR setup car, let alone a Skyline so there was never really much point me adding anything here but after this weekend's activities a little birdy has been in my ear that I should really give my 2c - so here it is

I am a very cautious kind of guy, I don't like overstating things and I don't like setting expectations unrealistically high - people who know me well will know that when discussing hypothetical setups and expected results I separate what I think is actually possible and what I think is a reasonable expectation, too often I see people evangelizing about the latest greatest thing they've heard of with no real data and overstated views on how they think their suggestion will perform compared to others and it surmounts to them convincing people into something that doesn't really do as well versus other alternatives as it could have and potentially have cost a lot of money or effort for little reward.  I don't ever want to be that guy, but still I clearly laid on pretty thick that I suspected these things could be a bit of a game changer for GTR tuning and until this weekend I've never really been too sure of exactly how much of a valid call that was.

So, this weekend I ended up in Sydney and caught up with a bunch of stout characters with stout cars in the interest of combination ethanol consumption with ethanol consumption (and a bit of talking crap and eating meat thrown in there) and one of the guys who showed up was Reaper from this forum - has an absolutely immaculate R34 GTR with a stock bottom end RB26 with VCam and an EFR8374 with the 1.05a/r hotside on a Full-Race big tube manifold, and somewhere during the day he generously gave me the chance to go for a spin around the block in his creation.  

I have to say, I *not* a fan of stock stroke RB26s... at least in GTRs, every single one I've been in seem uninterested in doing much under 4000+rpm and even above there often are half convincing by my tastes - at least when in combination with a heavy (for the displacement) 4WD car.  When I jumped in the car I had already cut some slack for the displacement of Reaper's car when combined with the fact it has a rather larger 79lb/min capable turbo on it when combined with the fact there were 3 decent size lads in the car - anything that happened next would be considered as "... for a stock stroke RB26 ..." but it turns out that wasn't necessary at all.

We jumped in the car and cruised off, and as the revs came up in second gear Reaper decided to snap open the throttle - not 100% sure what rpm it was at but it wasn't huge, very much in the rev range that with a conventional twin HKS GT2530/Garrett GT2860R-5s setup would result in a louder exhaust note and a gradual reverse-bungy build up as she winds up and buggers off...  but that is not what happened.  With 3 people in a well set up car on good tyres and a piddly wee 2.6 the damn thing snapped open the gate, squatted, scrabbled for traction and screamed off up the road and almost immediately ran out of 2nd gear, then 3rd gear etc.   I was very much left going - wtf just happened??

This set the tone for the rest of the happy lap in the car, I honestly would have believed it had a stroker kit on it or something of the type.  The thing just stood up SO fast.   I've never been in a stock stroke RB26 setup that stands up like that, the only RB28 I've been in (sorry Piggaz) was a VERY heavily optimised setup, possibly the best -5s setup I know of and this stock bottom end thing is a different level.  I've been in RB30 setups even making less power than this (ie, less turbo) which don't stand up on boost like this, perhaps more natural torque at lower rpm but in terms of the turbo coming on song and letting the car gtfo - nope.   I have no doubt that VCam and the rest of the coin Reaper has invested in his car all contribute to the epic outcome, but realistically I very much doubt it would be quite as spastic as it is without the EFR on the side of it... the whole experience embodies what people have told me about how these things behave and I've forwarded on some of these testimonials but have never been able to give my own.  I have to say:

Believe the hype.  Its all real.  These things are the shit.

It is epic how fast they respond to a stab on the throttle, even from surprisingly low rpm - and one of the most ridiculous things that happening during our little joy ride was when he loaded it up in 3rd gear going up a hill.... having an external wastegate really helps get an idea of when a turbo is making "good boost".   We had ~28psi dialled up for this pleasant outing, and as we approached a hill in 3rd gear at quite low rpm Reaper stood on the throttle and let it build boost.  This was obviously one of the "best case scenario" type turbo spool things, and naturally won't represent the typical boost threshold you'd see on a dyno or flooring it on the flat in a lower gear BUT the damn thing opened gate at just over 3000rpm.  This is an RB26 engine with an 800hp capable turbo opening gate at over 20psi at just over 3000rpm.  Seriously.

I remember having a discussion in and away from this thread about the idea of RB30+ engines with EFRs in GTRs etc and how amazing they'd be but I don't think I really got quite how mental it would be.  I'm happy to know people are starting to embrace these turbos on GTRs, let alone with VCam.   The world is a better place for it.   Its a crying shame that dyno results don't seem to capture the magic of what these turbos are like to experience, and I know that reading other peoples testimonials don't do it justice but if there is any evidence for anyone reading this thread who may be at a crossroads in turbo choices etc and wondering who to believe, and thinking Precisions etc seem practically as good (or better) for less money.... just look at the amount of long time GTR owners (including some who were anti-single turbos) in this thread who have gone out immediately after experiencing an EFR first hand and ordered their own.  

Ignore the fact that Precisions make more power per mm of compressor inducer, or the fact that the EFRs seem to run larger turbines for a power level, or the fact that Holsets and Hypergears seem to make dyno plots which look like they stand up really early when driven against a dyno in a pull - there are lots of things out there which make it seem like there are other things which may be able to compete with EFRs for similar or less money in terms of power and response, but if there are... I've not come across it yet and suspect if it is there, then if EFRs seem too expensive then the other option is not worth thinking about,

Anyway, I promised I'd say something and it's probably far too long and boring for most people to read - but it's all there, I've not had such a rave about these things before saying they're "that good" like this because I've not had enough data or experience to feel like it's justified... but here it is, so I hope it's worth something to anyone reading through and wondering.  If still in doubt, you just have to try and find someone who has an EFR on their car and go for a ride or a drive if its an option.

Thanks heaps for the ride, Reaper - bloody awesome car you've built there, and was good to meet you and catch up again with the others again after too long a gap from visiting Sydney.   Until next time!

Great to hear your first hand experience with the EFR8374. I'm currently building an RB25DET Neo with an EFR8374 0.92 IWG and I'm getting pretty close to completing it. Now I'm even more exited to get it done!

I also see you are from Wellington! I've spent the past couple of days looking around Wellington, currently on holiday touring NZ.

[HarrisRacing]

I got Harrisracing to post a similar log a few pages back though it was a 3-4 change. Maybe he could just jump in the car and do a similar to really settle this debate for once and for all. My money would be on the EFR spankerating over what the -5's do.

Otherwise sometime this decade i'll do it on mine... 3rd gear 3000rpm 100% throttle flat road pull turbo comparison ftw?

@HarrisRacing since tagging is a thing we do on forums now apparently? [emoji14]

 

 

I'll hook you up
3rd or 4th? Let's set some parameters to the tests.

Say full threshold test 2000 rpms up in 4th?
Then stabs starting at certain rpms from a roll in certain gears?
Then gear changes on boost?

We need to establish on the log an amount of time at certain cruise speeds before stabbing.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

3 hours ago, Roy said:

Am i missing something? What mods to the engine? That leaves any SR20 7670 result I have seen for dead!

It's a 4G63T, they spool anything.... also he's on a full TS setup... and maybe he might have a slightly stroked motor lol... still, amazing!

[sneakey pete]

51 minutes ago, HarrisRacing said:

I'll hook you up
3rd or 4th? Let's set some parameters to the tests.

Say full threshold test 2000 rpms up in 4th?
Then stabs starting at certain rpms from a roll in certain gears?
Then gear changes on boost?

We need to establish on the log an amount of time at certain cruise speeds before stabbing.

 

I was relying to MRskids posts on the previous page, from the looks of his logs it was as described in my post.

[HarrisRacing]

9 minutes ago, sneakey pete said:

 

I was relying to MRskids posts on the previous page, from the looks of his logs it was as described in my post.

Ahh gotcha.

Either way a few tests and pull logs will definitely help everyone know where they stand performance-wise globally.

1) A full 4th gear pull from 2k rpms up (will catch full threshold and powerband) on the road (not dyno)

2) A 2nd gear punch from 5k (roll punch response)

3) gear change from 3-4 under boost (transient response)

4) Maybe a punch in 3rd from 5500 then lift at full boost and re-punch just to see the road race or autox response?

I may try to get some logs this weekend to check it out.

[HarrisRacing]

11 hours ago, mr skidz said:

After tightening my temperature sensor up AGAIN and re fitting a loose vacuum hose as i ran out of zip ties..lol

I immediately logged my next ride and I thought I'd have a look at them last night out of curiosity and my response was a bit better again as expected but definitely not 28psi at 3k like the EVO!

This log is from a 10min short drive to work and I only had a flat Road and one 3rd gear pull.
Throttle went 100% @ 2900 rpm and just for comparison purposes I'll upload them all for anyone who wants to compare there logs to mine.

Axis used are:
throttle cruise at 0psi to wide open throttle starting at 2900rpm right up to 20psi

*note I'm still on 98 ron and timing is very Conservative as you can imagine.

0psi

7psi
14.7

20psi

 

Looks really nice! I'm absolutely impressed.

[mr skidz]

Looks really nice! I'm absolutely impressed.

Pm me if you like, happy to help out and compare things but I'm done with sau cbf with the stupid comments.

[Mick_o]

8 hours ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

It's a 4G63T, they spool anything.... also he's on a full TS setup... and maybe he might have a slightly stroked motor lol... still, amazing!

Lol yes he's slightly 100mm stroke and 2.3L ?

[Lithium]

12 hours ago, s2d4 said:

What's everyone's take on the rpm limits of these turbos?

I think you need to take them seriously - it's not a negative though, people often run turbos harder than they should and sometimes run into premature problems and blame the turbos themselves.  Borg Warner have been very transparent about the limits and have made it easy to track how hard they're being pressed (turbine speed sensors are easy to acquire and install) so fair play.  Keeping within the limits of the turbine speeds they are still unparalleled in terms of power vs response compared to other turbo setups I've experienced so it's not a limitation.

12 hours ago, reaper said:

Sale post is now up if anyone is interested.

 

Mate, you don't mess around - stoked I got a chance to get a taste of this setup before you sold it!   Squeezed through by days, whoever buys it is in for a treat!   I have to say, I do wonder how much VCam has contributed to the epic performance.   Will you be VCam and EFR in the new build?

11 hours ago, JustinP said:

Great to hear your first hand experience with the EFR8374. I'm currently building an RB25DET Neo with an EFR8374 0.92 IWG and I'm getting pretty close to completing it. Now I'm even more exited to get it done!

I also see you are from Wellington! I've spent the past couple of days looking around Wellington, currently on holiday touring NZ.

That will be a very interesting setup! In an R34 GTt?   I've been saying this for ages in this thread but now I've experienced it first hand its more significant than I expected, don't be disheartened if you see dyno plots which seem less epic than my ramble suggests - even Reaper's car wasn't full boost until after 4000rpm in a dyno run.  It seems real world is where they shine, which is where you want it to until you are just dyno drag racing.

How long are you in Wellington for? Sorry about the weather.  

7 hours ago, mr skidz said:

Pm me if you like, happy to help out and compare things but I'm done with sau cbf with the stupid comments.

While you did add some value (the data would be interesting to compare) and SAU is definitely full of silly comments you can't really complain too much when the majority of the off topic/silly comments in that last part of the thread were from yourself.  Keep it real, man - this is a Borg Warner EFR thread... not a thread people who to come to read want to find posts going on and on about pump gas, stock engine bays and antiquated Garrett bolt on turbos and trying to blame tuning on them performing like nuggets.  If you are going to carry on like that then of course you're going to get some stick.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Lithium

[JustinP]

9 minutes ago, Lithium said:

That will be a very interesting setup! In an R34 GTt?   I've been saying this for ages in this thread but now I've experienced it first hand its more significant than I expected, don't be disheartened if you see dyno plots which seem less epic than my ramble suggests - even Reaper's car wasn't full boost until after 4000rpm in a dyno run.  It seems real world is where they shine, which is where you want it to until you are just dyno drag racing.

How long are you in Wellington for? Sorry about the weather.

Yep in an R34 GTt. Should be interesting with RWD!

We have been here for a couple of days, we head off on the ferry this afternoon to the south island. Weather was great yesterday! And the sun looks like it might be returning now with a bit of luck.

 

[Roy]

43 minutes ago, Mick_o said:

Lol yes he's slightly 100mm stroke and 2.3L ?

That makes sense thrn. I have seen Full Race twin gate 7670 setup on an SE20 a (std S15) with cans and on 98 or E85 it was enough to turn me off...didnt make power or response to write home about. Partly why i am looking at a 7163 for my 2L YB Cosworth

[Lithium]

41 minutes ago, JustinP said:

Yep in an R34 GTt. Should be interesting with RWD!

We have been here for a couple of days, we head off on the ferry this afternoon to the south island. Weather was great yesterday! And the sun looks like it might be returning now with a bit of luck.

 

That should be very interesting!  I thought about a 7670 and even then I thought it'd be a bit mad, look forward to seeing results How far away will this be?

Not a nice day for a ferry ride today, looks pretty outside but that wind can make for fun sailing if it is coming from the right direction.  Still, other than that hope you enjoy the trip around - South Island can be pretty sweet around this time of year.

 

13 minutes ago, Roy said:

That makes sense thrn. I have seen Full Race twin gate 7670 setup on an SE20 a (std S15) with cans and on 98 or E85 it was enough to turn me off...didnt make power or response to write home about. Partly why i am looking at a 7163 for my 2L YB Cosworth

Not too surprising, no matter how you cut it - a 7670 is quite a large turbo for an SR20, I guess with the hype you'd be forgiven to hope for it to be overall lively but I'd say most people would expect a GTX3076R to be a dog until near 4500rpm on an SR20 so despite being one of the closest equivalents it still seems rough if you have to wait till after 4000 for real life with some a baller setup... I guess it depends on what you are comparing to.   Or are you saying it was lazy even considered it is a 400wkw capable setup?  

The EFR7163 seems like a neat wee donk, I'm still something of a doubter in terms of the magic that Full-Race put it across as HOWEVER it does seem like a very good beast as well - there are a couple of SRs which seem to go ok, have a mate who has one on a 4G63 but he's getting messed around by people who are meant to be finishing the build... should have been running ages ago.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Lithium

[Piggaz]

10 minutes ago, Roy said:

That makes sense thrn. I have seen Full Race twin gate 7670 setup on an SE20 a (std S15) with cans and on 98 or E85 it was enough to turn me off...didnt make power or response to write home about. Partly why i am looking at a 7163 for my 2L YB Cosworth

That's interesting Roy. Seems quite the opposite in results that I've seen over time. The 7163 is the ugly duckling and the 7670 quite the shining star. Could just be coincidence though. 

When are you looking at putting the 7163 on?