[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[Lithium]

29 minutes ago, mr skidz said:

I'd like to think that any turbo combo would slingshot from 4000 onwards.

You say that like you've never driven a stock displacement GTR with -5s or 2530s.  By my pants they do next to nothing when you first stab them at 4000rpm.

 

48 minutes ago, Kinkstaah said:

There's always going to be a 'best'. All I was really saying is there's diminishing returns and you start splitting hairs between 2-3 great options all within a very small window of difference.

The bigger and most notable difference is going to something modern.

Agreed fully with this.  I started this thread for interest in regards to a company bringing turbos to the general populace which has the kind of features previously only available to big budget race teams etc - for not THAT kind of budget.  Anyone who thinks of EFRs as cost effective performance are being silly, they are not race team expensive turbos which are race team spec BUT they're still definitely a fair bit more expensive than your typical units but due to the fact they're still exhaust driven superchargers they will not offer any magical different performance, just an edge.  That edge can matter more to some than others.

The other thing which is the part which is ever hard to quantify is how much "lighter" they feel under foot, I've said this much earlier but will re-iterate - this whole EFR (ie, TiAL exhaust wheel, twin scroll etc) experience fully applied correctly is much the same as comparing journal bearing versus ball bearing turbos back in the day.  People used to waahhh on that ball bearing cores were overrated and that journal bearings were just as good, it was all a sales thing - but as more and more people experienced the transient response difference in real terms things moved more and more in the direction of ball bearing turbos.  Even Hypergear have basically stated they're phasing out the JB range and going to ball bearing. 

From the perspective of someone who has been following turbo tech/tuning for decades now, this is all just the same old shit.  You want a bit more performance, you have to pay more money - the cost goes up exponentially for linear gains but it still results in better performance, its up to the individual to decide how worthwhile it is to them... and this thread is not about pandering to individuals with individual tastes, its about discussing whats here, whats on the horizon, and how things have gone with them to make them more than just a unicorn.

[usmair]

ok, how about this.

My car - stock 26 with a twin scroll EFR 8374 vs my brother's car stock 26 with a twin scroll ball bearing 6262.

Aside from turbo, both setups are very similar. Both are on e85.

My brother is making 460kw and I have his dyno sheet handy. Once mine is done (hopefully this week) I will put up both dyno print outs and we can compare till the cows come home.

Only doing dynos, cant be ass'd doing actual logging.

But i will drive my brother's GTR and my GTR back to back and provide a butt on seat review.

[Buraz]

ok, how about this.

My car - stock 26 with a twin scroll EFR 8374 vs my brother's car stock 26 with a twin scroll ball bearing 6262.

Aside from turbo, both setups are very similar. Both are on e85.

My brother is making 460kw and I have his dyno sheet handy. Once mine is done (hopefully this week) I will put up both dyno print outs and we can compare till the cows come home.

Only doing dynos, cant be ass'd doing actual logging.

But i will drive my brother's GTR and my GTR back to back and provide a butt on seat review.

What boost is your brothers car running with the Precision?

[Buraz]

Once I get my boost controller installed to stabilize boost and tuned I'll have a decent comparison with a few people here.

I'v pretty much got same setup as Piggaz in terms of 2.8 stroker, 6 boost manifold, twin 38mm gates but I run a 6262. Although he has much more headwork and V cam it'll still be comparable. I always wanted an efr but ended up with a precision, don't know why lol.

Iv been following this tread for ages now!!

[Nismo 3.2ish]

6 minutes ago, usmair said:

ok, how about this.

My car - stock 26 with a twin scroll EFR 8374 vs my brother's car stock 26 with a twin scroll ball bearing 6262.

Aside from turbo, both setups are very similar. Both are on e85.

My brother is making 460kw and I have his dyno sheet handy. Once mine is done (hopefully this week) I will put up both dyno print outs and we can compare till the cows come home.

Only doing dynos, cant be ass'd doing actual logging.

But i will drive my brother's GTR and my GTR back to back and provide a butt on seat review.

Your brothers 6262 must be  close to maxed @ 460kw , they are rated at 675BHP or the CEA at 705BHP , but who knows just how much they can do??

Look forward to see the results

[Buraz]

That's why I'm asking, I had 410kw on a 2.6 and that's all she'd make, in saying that my engine was very tired.

Now on a 2.8 I have 420kw on only 20psi but was told not to expect it to go much over 480kw if that

[usmair]

23 minutes ago, Buraz said:

What boost is your brothers car running with the Precision?

around 30psi

[33GTRV]

I have a precision, i run 500+, ive built quiet a few 500+ cars. Boost pressure is irrelevant.  Comparing a turbo that is in its peak efficiency range at sub 200krpm and sub 30psi to a turbo specifically designed to turn much harder and have an efficiency range and compressor map to 50+psi is like comparing your sister to a supermodel. Precision designed the CEA turbos to outperform at the limit, and i can guarentee this, they do. BW designed a turbo to outperform in response vs boost and i can guarentee they have there too. I have personally run a 6466 with a .84 housing at 55psi on a relatively mild stroker and seen over 640kw on e85. Thats with basic headwork and stock valves. I have also personally seen a BW EFR 8374 on an evo make stupid numbers but fall on its ass at 30psi, but drive like a big block once on song. IMO,  its down to choice. You want big block response and big turbo top end, build a 632cube turbo. You want the most you can squeeze  out of a small cube donk, build accordingly and probably, at this stage, build with a precision. You want a street light missile then build with an efr. 

[Nismo 3.2ish]

Hi Allan , good to get someone elses input to this that knows what he wants, I have a 6266 , but thinking of going to the 8374 to help get it a bit more snappy low end. Happy with keeping the psi around 25 on E85 as it gives me everything  I need.

It is what the individual wants from his ride that matters. I just listen to like minded people to get there

 

[mr skidz]

^well said

[SimonR32]

23 hours ago, Nismo 3.2ish said:

Your brothers 6262 must be  close to maxed @ 460kw , they are rated at 675BHP or the CEA at 705BHP , but who knows just how much they can do??

Look forward to see the results

Mine went 552kw with a 6262 CEA at the hubs on 30psi so I'd imagine it's not at its limits yet 

[Nismo 3.2ish]

It just goes to show you, how can you believe the manufactures?

I have a 6266 CEA Gen2 , rated at 800BHP and my tuner said it is close to maxed at 461KW, so about 45kw left in it going off the manufacturer.

So your 552kw is 740whp and 852BHP on the 6262CEA , about 150BHP over the suggested ratings by the manufacture, that is great , so going on that I should get close to 950BHP + on the 6266CEA Gen2

Maybe my 3.2Lt donk has something to do with it not being able to get to the BHP levels you have achieved on a smaller turbo ??

I was also told I will only get around the same KWs with the 8374 if I put it on, but better response, YEAH!

[Lithium]

Fwiw hp ratings are silly for turbos. They can be exceeded and also fell short of depending on the setup.

 

In terms of hub dyno numbers a couple of people I know  have hit 600wkw with EFR8374s on hub dynos on E85

Edited August 24, 2016 by Lithium

[SimonR32]

33 minutes ago, Lithium said:

Fwiw hp ratings are silly for turbos. They can be exceeded and also fell short of depending on the setup.

 

In terms of hub dyno numbers a couple of people have hit 600wkw with EFR8374s on hub dynos on E85

I'd love to see what correction they are using to get 600kw out of a 8374, would be interesting? Jeff's R14 did 525kw on a EFR8374 on same hub dyno we use on 2 bar.

In saying that my set up has always made around 30-40hp more than set up GTX3582R on the same dyno, same correction etc. Generally the GTX seem to top out around the 500kw mark, mine used to go 525kw and when we turned it right up to 11 (with a extra few pounds of boost and 2 more degrees of timing) it gained another 25kw again on top of that. Now days with my new stock motor and smaller cams (Tomei Poncam Type R) it's hovering around 515kw.

I just checked and Matt's RB30 EFR8374 went 450kw on the same dyno but with a much lower 1.6bar which is very similar to the power mine makes at that boost.

Edited August 24, 2016 by SimonR32

[Lithium]

SAE, 1.00TCF on 35psi on a Subaru.

Plenty of people have gone from GTX3582 to 8374s and picked up good power, the Falcon guys in Oz were probably the first I know of to do the switch...the first one to do the swap did solid 9s with one then low 9s with a 9180 with full interior.  I forget there is no point claiming power figures as you guys seem to make a big deal if you don't agree even if sulking because it's more than you expect, those EFRs both made enough to make a 1800kg car go well over 130mph in the quarter.

Whatever your maths make of it.

 

Attached this just to show the correction etc of the 8374 on the Subaru.  I know it's going to be ignored for some reason or another but it's there because I have it and someone might find it interesting.

 

I might tap out from here as I sense the same old circles gaining momentum, the previous comments on choose what works for you, what you can afford or what you know and go with that. No point arguing.  Just realise that other people who have conflicting opinions or thoughts to you can have every bit as much knowledge and experience as you, if not more - and may have made their decisions on more than a whim.  You clearly rate the 6262 as better, so you have chosen an option which is perfect for you - well done, that is great... it would be folly for me to criticise the selection given the results and your feelings on it.  What puzzles me is what you are doing in this thread.

 

Peace all, I might pop back in briefly before the end of the year as there will be some more activity relevant to my interests but otherwise have fun

Edited August 24, 2016 by Lithium

[runuts]

HP / flow ratings are fine for turbos when they have compressor maps. Without, it's just guesswork and prob why some turbos get a bad wrap as they are over spun to make power.

[HarrisRacing]

FYI.

Just drove my car to work this morning in a little over a week (don't know if you've heard on the news about all of the flooding in my area of the world, but thank God we are OK - lots of our friends were not so fortunate).

I trimmed my fuel map a good bit leaner to correct my AFR after fixing my voltage issues and the car is significantly smoother to drive again.

My final PUMP GAS assessment (and I'm on a 2.75L stroker). The 8374 EFR .92 IWG is a very drivable turbo for a streetcar. It starts coming on STRONG at 3700 rpms and pulls all the way till I bang the limiter which is currently at 8k. At 20 psi boost I could easily autox the car and it's definitely responsive enough to do this. I can 100% vouch that I am HAPPY for the amount of power it makes now and the powerband of my engine. I built my motor to go 9k so at the current 8k limit I'm very pleased with the delivery and response of the turbo. I'm even more pleased that there is still 10-15 psi of boost and possibly 150-200 more HP left in my setup when I move to E85. For pump gas SOME may think this powerband is a bit laggy, but hey...the RB is NOT a big motor and you WILL be giving up lots of power if you size something that magically spools at 3k rpms. They are currently building an E85 station RIGHT BY MY HOUSE that is supposed to be completed in November so get ready for some cold weather and high-boost E85 numbers coming soon. I'll save my pennies for a couple of extra fuel pumps and some GIANT injectors and let you guys know how this thing really performs.

But don't forget it made already on 93 pump:

376 whp on 10 psi

464 whp on 17 psi (88 whp gain from only 7 psi boost) - also ran 11.70 @ 120 with this tune.

I'm estimating (and will dyno again soon) 500 whp on 20 psi on 93 pump with conservative timing.

And when I put in E85 I'm sure the sky is the limit (or Trans as I am on a bone-stock R32 box currently).

I'm kinda with you Lithium...It gets strange just looking at dyno numbers from "X" car on the internet. I provided logs and videos correlating them, and others posted driving videos of their cars in competition (so did I), which should give plenty of information for those looking to go bigger.

I personally would not put a precision on my car for the reason that I think the EFR has more to offer for the money and more engineering data behind it should I make changes in the future (the wheel speed attachment point is one GREAT feature to start with).

That being said, I understand the guys with -5's not wanting to swap their setups and I understand 100% the labor, time and money involved in that swap...I likely would NOT remove -5 turbos if they were on my car - but I went from stock turbos to the 8374EFR and honestly with the: Integrated BOV, integrated wastegate, oversized ball bearings, CNC compressor wheel, Gamma-Ti exhaust wheel, stainless steel housing, V-Band ready compressor housing, and wheel speed sensor ready boss - it's a GREAT value in a very reliable and responsive turbo. Not that I would do this, but the simplicity that I have with my setup is such that in 45 minutes I could 100% remove my turbo, wastegate, intake, and blow off valve from my car and bolt on the 1,000HP 9180 in it's place <-- this was added bonus for me.

I stayed with the IWG .92 because I got the turbo for $1640 USD shipped straight from Ebay (seller HAD to have listed the price wrong, but they honored the sale). Think about it...that's a world-class BB turbo, wastegate, and BOV for less than the cost of most other singles before you add a BOV or single wastegate to them (and lots of guys are running twin gates). So add in a 6 boost manifold (you guys all get them for less than I do) and honestly it was a no-brainer great deal on this setup even compared to me going -5's with new gaskets, lines, hot pipes, etc.

 

[s2d4]

HP / flow ratings are fine for turbos when they have compressor maps. Without, it's just guesswork and prob why some turbos get a bad wrap as they are over spun to make power.

EFRs can't be over spun apparently.

[runuts]

9 minutes ago, s2d4 said:

EFRs can't be over spun apparently.

You can overspin an EFR, just expect to have a nice paperweight afterwards.

Realistically, overspin a garrett, or precision, it will fail eventually also. Just because it works in short spurts, doesn't mean its doing what it should.

[s2d4]

You can overspin an EFR, just expect to have a nice paperweight afterwards.

Realistically, overspin a garrett, or precision, it will fail eventually also. Just because it works in short spurts, doesn't mean its doing what it should.

In the past, if the turbo stopped making power, that'd be where you'd have stopped as it would be out of its efficiency zone. The turbo speed didn't seem so crucial as you would have stopped prior to the limit or the limit is much higher and/or not catastrophic immediately.

With the EFR's and the combination of E85, the rpm limit appears to be an issue.