[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos

[HarrisRacing]

1 hour ago, s2d4 said:

In the past, if the turbo stopped making power, that'd be where you'd have stopped as it would be out of its efficiency zone. The turbo speed didn't seem so crucial as you would have stopped prior to the limit or the limit is much higher and/or not catastrophic immediately.

With the EFR's and the combination of E85, the rpm limit appears to be an issue.

Or installing too small of an EFR will cause overrun even on pump. I think on a 3.0L you could be at the upper limit of an 8374 at only 22 psi and 8k rpms FYI.

The material is super light, and super oxide resistant at extremely high temps, but has extremely low ductility. Meaning it will not stretch...only perform until fracture (rpms of the turbo are the tensile ductility test). EFR manual states this several times as the reasonable limit. This is extremely similar to why the factory ceramic turbines explode at a certain RPM (wow another high-heat, lightweight, low ductility material). It was either that or they become un-bonded from the shaft, but no one knows because they turn into dust when they do finally explode.

On my initial MATCH BOT 2.75L projection, I found that I could get into the 30-32 psi range in the mid-range of rpms (5-6800) but would have to taper off boost to keep from over-spinning on top end (down to 22 psi @ 8,500). So you take the rally car approach where you spin the turbo to max as soon as possible (mega torque) then ride this same power level (ie-turbo rpms) all the way out to redline (to keep from blowing up the turbo).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_aluminide

 

[runuts]

1 hour ago, s2d4 said:

In the past, if the turbo stopped making power, that'd be where you'd have stopped as it would be out of its efficiency zone. The turbo speed didn't seem so crucial as you would have stopped prior to the limit or the limit is much higher and/or not catastrophic immediately.

With the EFR's and the combination of E85, the rpm limit appears to be an issue.

True, but but personally I agree with Harris Racing, just because you can doesn't mean you should. BW give plenty of accurate data, eg. Comp maps, max shaft speed, matchbot etc so it would naive to ignore it and complain about a failure.

its just that ignorance has become the norm, and people spin most turbos well beyond they're design limitations because on fuels like E85 they continue to make power with added boost. Yet a step up to a properly sized unit will generally have gains everywhere, and stay reliable too lol

[Full-Race Geoff]

 

 the inconel (airwerks or garret or precision) will fracture more slowly than gamma ti (EFR).  this is why borgwarner tells customers drag racing: buy the airwerks OR twin EFRs.

below photo shows a gt30R turbine wheel subjected to overspeed from owen in the UK

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2016 by Full-Race Geoff

[Nismo 3.2ish]

4 hours ago, Full-Race Geoff said:

 

 the inconel (airwerks or garret or precision) will fracture more slowly than gamma ti (EFR).  this is why borgwarner tells customers drag racing: buy the airwerks OR twin EFRs.

below photo shows a gt30R turbine wheel subjected to overspeed from owen in the UK

 

 

 

Just a little Super Glue Geoff and poke it back in

Do the broken bits end up in the donk ??

[s2d4]

True, but but personally I agree with Harris Racing, just because you can doesn't mean you should. BW give plenty of accurate data, eg. Comp maps, max shaft speed, matchbot etc so it would naive to ignore it and complain about a failure.

its just that ignorance has become the norm, and people spin most turbos well beyond they're design limitations because on fuels like E85 they continue to make power with added boost. Yet a step up to a properly sized unit will generally have gains everywhere, and stay reliable too lol

All I said that was it is an issue, and yes it can be controlled and mitigated with more costs than otherwise stated with EFR'S. I never said that over spinning is a mute point on non EFR's.

When I first brought this up, everyone ignored it except lith. My point was that people need to know the limitations before hand and work with it accordingly for their application rather than blindingly thinking that it comes with no draw backs.

At the end of the day, as others have mentioned, pick the application that suits your build knowing the entire list of pro and cons and that's that.

[HarrisRacing]

33 minutes ago, s2d4 said:

When I first brought this up, everyone ignored it except lith. My point was that people need to know the limitations before hand and work with it accordingly for their application rather than blindingly thinking that it comes with no draw backs.

I was able to perform Match-Bot calcs for my turbo prior to selection and it is well documented on this forum. It is one major reason I went with Borg Warner over a precision. Their data is about 5X's of what is offered from Garrett and about infinityX's what is offered from precision. As a mechanical engineer, I just really like the data / planning stages of the build. So if "knowing limitations before hand" is highly important then I would venture to say choosing a Precision would be an absolute last resort IMO.

[mr skidz]

Fwiw I'm aware of a correctly sized precision turbo on a pretty special 2.8 and has turned over 800rwkw and is actually responsive and starts charging upwards at late 3k mark.

I would have thought that's as good as it gets for a 2.8 and this is a streetcar

[Nismo 3.2ish]

35 minutes ago, mr skidz said:

Fwiw I'm aware of a correctly sized precision turbo on a pretty special 2.8 and has turned over 800rwkw and is actually responsive and starts charging upwards at late 3k mark.

I would have thought that's as good as it gets for a 2.8 and this is a streetcar

What Precision Turbo was it, something like the  6870 Gen2, going hard at 4000rpm ? thats sounds mad for a street car

[mr skidz]

What Precision Turbo was it, something like the  6870 Gen2, going hard at 4000rpm ? thats sounds mad for a street car:cool:

Unfortunately I was told prior to the build that specs were under raps and they remain unfortunately.

Don't mind sharing my specs but other people's i wont

unless of course they don't mind

[Nismo 3.2ish]

Getting 800awkw + and not laggy around town, that sounds special. Nearly twice the power as mine and I have 3.2 , a smallish 6266 and a Vcam to get it going, I know I can change the turbo and injectors to get top end, but what for as I will loose it where I want it 

With that top end and the turbo you would need to get 1150BHP, I would have thought it would not get full boost until 6000rpm + , under 4000rpm

Looking forward to see how mine goes with the EFR but I know I will not get anymore up top and do not care, even dropping a few KWs is OK with me, shit, it is a handful as it is 

Like to see those specs if you get the permission to post them  

[s2d4]

Fwiw I'm aware of a correctly sized precision turbo on a pretty special 2.8 and has turned over 800rwkw and is actually responsive and starts charging upwards at late 3k mark.

I would have thought that's as good as it gets for a 2.8 and this is a streetcar

Doesn't sound like you know what responsive is if it means spooling at 4k.

[s2d4]

Getting 800awkw + and not laggy around town, that sounds special. Nearly twice the power as mine and I have 3.2 , a smallish 6266 and a Vcam to get it going, I know I can change the turbo and injectors to get top end, but what for as I will loose it where I want it 

With that top end and the turbo you would need to get 1150BHP, I would have thought it would not get full boost until 6000rpm + , under 4000rpm

Looking forward to see how mine goes with the EFR but I know I will not get anymore up top and do not care, even dropping a few KWs is OK with me, shit, it is a handful as it is 

Like to see those specs if you get the permission to post them [emoji4] 

You are at full boost by 4k?

[mr skidz]

Doesn't sound like you know what responsive is if it means spooling at 4k.

I didn't say 4k and i also didn't say spooling at that's about all i can say unfortunately

[Full-Race Geoff]

4 hours ago, mr skidz said:

Fwiw I'm aware of a correctly sized precision turbo on a pretty special 2.8 and has turned over 800rwkw and is actually responsive and starts charging upwards at late 3k mark

 

2 hours ago, mr skidz said:

specs were under raps and they remain unfortunately.

mr skidz, your posts are coming off as trolling at this point.  do EFR people go into precision threads and talk about how great their mates setup is, but wont give any details??  whilst complaining there is no data?  cmon...

1 hour ago, Nismo 3.2ish said:

With that top end and the turbo you would need to get 1150BHP, I would have thought it would not get full boost until 6000rpm + , under 4000rpm

Looking forward to see how mine goes with the EFR but I know I will not get anymore up top and do not care, even dropping a few KWs is OK with me, shit, it is a handful as it is

my recommendation for any EFR setups targetting big power and early spool -- twin EFR7163 is untouchable. Below shows E85, 3.4 liter 2J.  145K shaft speed, 41 psi… 1185 wheel and 930-980 tq spinning 25-30 mph difference between ft and rear wheel speeds.. She has all of 1200 wheel and 1000 tq in her…

 

[Piggaz]

7 hours ago, mr skidz said:

Also note the short amount of time it takes to make 7psi from a squick stab of the throttle.
Does the efr react similar?

This has been answered many times in this thread. Maybe not specifically to 7 psi, but the whole transient response question has.

R32 TT posted a few pages back that between the -5's and the 8374, the 8374 came back into its stride almost in 1/3rd the time of the -5's that came off his engine. So, -5's off, 8374 on. Retune. That's data off his own Motec. 

Everyone that puts on of these EFR's on the car says the same thing. Transient response is mental. Can everyone be wrong?

Here we go again. Round and round the merry go round we go.

There will never be enough data/first hand experience to convince a skeptic never interested in the product in the first place.

20 pages of GT series low mount's dribble in an EFR thread. Really?

[s2d4]

"Charging" as car as a whole starts moving is all I'm gonna say.

it's streetable for such a high output car that's all.

The car is a whole package with no expense spared put it that way.

The car as whole starts moving? Compared to otherwise NA with no boost assistance?

Responsive means "street able for such a high output car"? You mean driving around with no boost?

Whole package with no expense spared means physics does not apply?

While I find you absolutely hilarious in your claims, I'm beginning to come to a conclusion that you have ill constructed basis to your judgements.

[Meathead]

SAU used to have good moderators that would sort skidmark out fairly quickly.

Guarantee if no one bites or replies to his drivel (I know its hard) he will remove himself from this thread.

I swapped out 5's on a 2.8 with 9:1 compression to a 8374 iwg with a Fullrace manifold and dump (no other changes) and the difference is night and day.

Had this 33gtr for 15 years first with OEM then T517z's (2.8) then 5's now EFR

No dyno logs as yet but do not really need one to know if there was an improvement as it is damned obvious

Ignore the skidmark!

 

[Nismo 3.2ish]

8 hours ago, Piggaz said:

This has been answered many times in this thread. Maybe not specifically to 7 psi, but the whole transient response question has.

R32 TT posted a few pages back that between the -5's and the 8374, the 8374 came back into its stride almost in 1/3rd the time of the -5's that came off his engine. So, -5's off, 8374 on. Retune. That's data off his own Motec. 

Everyone that puts on of these EFR's on the car says the same thing. Transient response is mental. Can everyone be wrong?

Here we go again. Round and round the merry go round we go.

There will never be enough data/first hand experience to convince a skeptic never interested in the product in the first place.

20 pages of GT series low mount's dribble in an EFR thread. Really?

I do not mind 20 pages referring to other turbos, it would be totally boring if there were no comparisons on threads like this. I am sure Lith enjoys the banter , well maybe , lol ?

It would be more interesting if there was more input from the 8374 side, back to back Dynos or whatever on cars that have made direct changes from other turbos to the BW8374 or any EFR turbo for comparisons.

The only thing I know, I was in Bretts R and it was great down low and the transient response was bang on, Paul and Micko have been in Niks R and were very impressed how the car went , these blokes are speed lovers and have there own special cars and do not get spotters fee for liking the 8374s.

I do find it strange when someone makes statements about something they have no first hand knowledge of and can only guess what it is like. Even the short time I have played with my R34 I know the top power readings and how a car drives are 2 different things. My first changes only gave me 7KW more but you could drive the car around town, even have 3 passengers and take off from park up hill without launching the heap of shit !

In the new year I might have a back to back on the PT 6266CEA Gen2 Vs BW8374 and will get  as much info as I can to post.

I don't know what you blokes think but when I go to look at the activities and have to go through every Farken post, drives me mad and I have stopped reading the activity threads/posts, hate it!!!!!!!

Edited August 27, 2016 by Nismo 3.2ish

[Trex]

I read about 10 pages of this thread.

Since monday there have been over 30 posts that have been edited. Some of these are for petty insults, and some are to troll, while some have deleted their insults.

Some posts have factual information. Some posts are just theoretical. Some posts have false information.

 

This is a discussion on BW turbos. This includes comparisons against other turbo manufacturers and their results.

This is NOT a discussion on who can make the wittiest remark to bait the other member. If you want to let your fingers run wild, do it through messenger where no one else has to read it.

If someone posts false information, be civil. Ask them who why where how etc. Let them be their undoing. OR report the post and a moderator will hide it.

 

1 hour ago, Trex said:

This is an internet forum, with this comes difference of opinions. You are not obliged to reply to trolls or people who disagree with you. 

If someone personally attacks you or is derailing a thread, report the post and it will be dealt with. Reports are dealt with within a few hours.

 

[R31Nismoid]

Knock off the bullshit and trolling or whoever does it next, gets a month long holiday.