Garrett Medium Frame Gtx Turbos

[jet_r31]

Yeh it has the RS wheel. But how much fairy dust can you sprinkle on a 62mm turbine to make it flow what a 67mm extended tip comp wheel can flow.?

We have already seen garret style turbines updated and the results are decent, not enough to bridge that grand canyon gap  from 62 to 65/66 though..lol

On a 1.5-2.0L motor be okay. But all these big hp midframes these days are housing/turbine limited at the best of times already on kill on a 3.0+

Doesnt matter, its garrett, be plenty of suckers lining up..lol.

On the 1.06 vs 1.22, i think its for large capacity motors on low PR.. but lots of power, i reckon that on our motors the big housing will just add lag and no more flow

if i had to bet on it  like .82 vs 1.06 on 3582's..lot of lag..f**kall extra power..shit power curve aswell. Okay for autos, cock sucking on manuals.

cheers

darren

[s2d4]

Didn't EFR9174 do the same by adding a larger compressor wheel @67.7mm on the 62mm back side?

I also don't understand how it's meant for high capacity engine while stating requiring tiny capacity on high boost to reach that Power/flow ?

[Lithium]

18 hours ago, jet_r31 said:

Yeh it has the RS wheel. But how much fairy dust can you sprinkle on a 62mm turbine to make it flow what a 67mm extended tip comp wheel can flow.?

We have already seen garret style turbines updated and the results are decent, not enough to bridge that grand canyon gap  from 62 to 65/66 though..lol

On a 1.5-2.0L motor be okay. But all these big hp midframes these days are housing/turbine limited at the best of times already on kill on a 3.0+

Doesnt matter, its garrett, be plenty of suckers lining up..lol.

On the 1.06 vs 1.22, i think its for large capacity motors on low PR.. but lots of power, i reckon that on our motors the big housing will just add lag and no more flow

if i had to bet on it  like .82 vs 1.06 on 3582's..lot of lag..f**kall extra power..shit power curve aswell. Okay for autos, cock sucking on manuals.

Unsure why you are speeling like I think otherwise, I clearly agree - I simply pointed out that Garrett had made a little more effort than usual to the turbine side which is interesting but not hugely encouraging under the circumstances, it still looks like a mess but maybe just not as bad as it initially looked.

In terms of the 1.22a/r hotside - it's clearly a necessity if people want any hope of getting near the flow the 84mm comp wheel can supply, I think that housing really would be the only option for anyone seriously wanting to use this turbo.   They have supplied the flow map for it so there is no need to wonder about the fairydust factor, it flows almost as much as a GT4088R 1.06a/r divided hotside which has been proven to support some reasonable power levels.   I expect it will make a fair bit more than your run of the mill GTX3582R on an appropriate setup but I think its still Garrett showing they are losing touch and clutching at straws.

Will will find out fairly soon, there is someone putting one on a 2JZ drift car already and probably will be running soon.

7 hours ago, s2d4 said:

Didn't EFR9174 do the same by adding a larger compressor wheel @67.7mm on the 62mm back side?

I also don't understand how it's meant for high capacity engine while stating requiring tiny capacity on high boost to reach that Power/flow ?

EFR8374 is a 6264 in Precision talk, 64mm turbine exducer....

Not sure quite what you are getting at by your high capacity engine tiny capacity on high boost ponderings, but if I assume I know what you are wondering about... the compressor flows at it's best at ~22psi on a very efficient setup, any more than that and it starts flowing less so if you hope to making "1000hp" you have to do it at 22psi.  The turbine side is undersized, the more restrictive your hotside is the more pressure you build on the turbine side for a given amount of exhaust flow.  

For sake of argument (and pulling numbers out of my ass just to clarify the concepts) an EVO running a GTX3582R at 500awkw may build 40psi of turbine inlet pressure but probably running 35psi to achieve that power figure, so the exhaust side in that instance is 5psi higher pressure than the intake side which doesn't cause a huge issue.   The bigger the difference across the engine the more "interested" the exhaust gases are in hanging around the engine as the intake side is lower pressure and the gases just want the easiest way out.... this effect drops VE and can start negatively affecting your ability to make more power for obvious reasons (ie, the cylinder volume holds more and more useless hot gases than clean air/fuel mix).

That brings on to the mismatch - if you want to aim for the peak flow levels of a turbo whose compressor is at it's best at 22psi, but the same turbine can cause 40psi of exhaust pressure trying to support less power than the new compressor can make.... you have a HUGE pressure difference across the engine and basically start sacrificing displacement until you can't make more power or something even less appealing happens.

Hope that makes sense, or at least wasn't way off what you were getting at

[s2d4]

EFR8374 is a 6264 in Precision talk, 64mm turbine exducer....
Not sure quite what you are getting at by your high capacity engine tiny capacity on high boost ponderings,

Thanks for the reply and the correction of the turbine wheel.

The comment about the capacity was not directed at you but the other guy, didn't make much sense to me.

[jet_r31]

Im not speeling to you Lith. I can see exactly what angle  you are coming from..

With the internet its just a case of how people perceive things written as usual. I cant do much there, sorry

cheers

darren

[Muratori]

Anyone notice the Gen II GTX3582R doesn't have the option for a divided rear housing? 

[whatsisname]

The GTX3584RS will support roughly 850-880HP on a 3.0L (maximum rpm of ~7500-8000) at a PR of about 3.1-3.3
No chance of getting 1000HP out of it, not unless it can be done at a PR of 2.75 and even then it seems unlikely considering the choke line doesn't go beyond the 90lbs/min mark anyway - maybe using E85 or race fuel blends.
That said, no one thought the older Garrett stuff was capable of supporting the power level they are nowadays running on E85.

I am interested in seeing what the new RS turbine wheel is capable of in term of response and top end power. So much so I'm using my 33 and RB30DET to find out [emoji6]

[jet_r31]

Japanese motorsport in s.a  already fitted one to there manual vl drag car  a few weeks ago, havnt seen the results and dont really see the point in fitting

it to a drag car for that much coin, much better options out there ,  im tipping  they believed the 1000hp rating and its was pretty looking..

 

[sneakey pete]

Anyone seen any results yet?

[whatsisname]

Japanese motorsport in s.a  already fitted one to there manual vl drag car  a few weeks ago, havnt seen the results and dont really see the point in fitting
it to a drag car for that much coin, much better options out there ,  im tipping  they believed the 1000hp rating and its was pretty looking..
 

Let me know if you find out what they got out of it.

[whatsisname]

Anyone seen any results yet?

Not yet. I'm hoping to have mine up and running in Jan. I'm sure they'll be a few results out by then.

[JH32]

I believe this is the one that Andrew Hawkins from Motive DVD is fitting to his R32 GTR so could see some RB26 results soon.. ? 

[MattSR]

Ahhh nope - he isn't fitting an 3584RS. They came out just after he did his recent turbo upgrade.

[Lithium]

On 18/12/2016 at 0:28 PM, whatsisname said:

The GTX3584RS will support roughly 850-880HP on a 3.0L (maximum rpm of ~7500-8000) at a PR of about 3.1-3.3
No chance of getting 1000HP out of it, not unless it can be done at a PR of 2.75 and even then it seems unlikely considering the choke line doesn't go beyond the 90lbs/min mark anyway - maybe using E85 or race fuel blends.
That said, no one thought the older Garrett stuff was capable of supporting the power level they are nowadays running on E85.

I am interested in seeing what the new RS turbine wheel is capable of in term of response and top end power. So much so I'm using my 33 and RB30DET to find out
 

 

 

Good on you - I was never going to suggest one to anyone because I don't feel confident that they're going to be worth it versus the likes of a Precision 6466 etc, but I am very interested to see how it goes and you never know if they've come up with something brilliant.  Let us know how you go!  When do you expect to have it running?

Edited December 19, 2016 by Lithium

[whatsisname]

Thanks, Lith [emoji106]?

A mate and I were just running the numbers through the calculator and it seems a GTX3584RS will support roughly 950HP on a RB30DET (3000cc) at a PR of 2.7, provided it can spin to just shy of 10,000RPM. Will probably sneak 1000HP on E85, Q16 etc.
He is a bit of a guru when it comes to plotting comp map response and horsepower calculations. I'm fairly confident I'll get 860+HP out of mine at 30ish psi.

I'll post up the map plot once it's finished. Should achieve full boost by 4000-4500RPM.

Of course it's all theoretical at this stage. Hoping to know real world numbers late Jan.

[Lithium]

33 minutes ago, whatsisname said:

Thanks, Lith ?

A mate and I were just running the numbers through the calculator and it seems a GTX3584RS will support roughly 950HP at a PR of 2.7, provided it can spin to just shy of 10,000RPM. Will probably sneak 1000HP on E85, Q16 etc.
He is a bit of a guru when it comes to plotting comp map response and horsepower calculations. I'm fairly confident I'll get 860+HP out of mine at 30ish psi.

I'll post up the map plot once it's finished. Should achieve full boost by 4000-4500RPM.

Of course it's all theoretical at this stage. Hoping to know real world numbers late Jan.

No worries, good luck

Yeah that turbo has absolutely got the compressor flow to make that power @ crank at that boost level, on E85.  With all due respect, your mate probably has a reasonable idea to come up with what he has but if thinks he can determine spool/response from a compressor map then my standards for what earns the "guru" title are somewhat higher     Response is affected by a shitload more than just potential compressor flow.

Maybe there is other stuff you guys have factored in that you haven't mentioned there, but my biggest concern with the GT3584RS isn't the compressor flow - it's the dynamic between turbine and compressor side... at 2.7PR on the compressor side I have my suspicions that the turbine side may be WELL over that pressure, meaning that the VE you are counting on at the rpm you aim to spin at may not be there to flow at that pressure ratio.  Normally I'd just assume I was missing something, but Garrett have a patchy history of releasing crap mismatches and advertising them as awesome things (Awww yeah the "responsive 500hp" GT25/40R of the mid 90s. YUCK.) so I hope this is a break from tradition.

For what it's worth, Precision's old PT6765 was based off the old T-series P-trim turbine wheel and choked their 67/88mm CEA turbine wheel - even at high boost, same goes for the GT3794-HTA... both turbos capable of similar compressor flow to the GTX3584RS.  Precision released the 66mm "CEA" turbine wheels, and FP released the "Super" series turbos to allow their 67mm compressors a bit more breathing space on the hotside and got quite decent gains as a result.   The old Precision/FP 65mm turbines would likely be quite a bit better flowing than the new "RS" Gen2 turbine wheel

<edit - I just looked it up> The GT3584RS .83 housing flows quite a bit less than the old Garrett P-trim turbine in a .84 divided housing, HOWEVER the 1.01a/r "RS" turbine actually flows slightly more, and the 1.21a/r housing has pretty stout flow.   I would suggest using AT LEAST the 1.01 housing, it might not help your spool targets but if you aim to spin your motor and try and make the most of that compressor it may be an idea.

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by Lithium

[whatsisname]

We deliberately went low with all estimations. But fair call regarding the dynamic between turbine and compressor. The assumption is the RS wheel and SS housing is capable of moving the compressor to the predicted point on the map. Time will tell. Honeywell and Garrett are going to look awfully stupid their new RS turbine wheel is a huge flop given the fanfare about 2 years of aerospace engineering development.

[Lithium]

30 minutes ago, whatsisname said:

Honeywell and Garrett are going to look awfully stupid their new RS turbine wheel is a huge flop given the fanfare about 2 years of aerospace engineering development.

To be fair the fact that the difference in peak compressor flow between a GTX3582R and Gen2 GTX3582R is ~4-5lb/min, it uses exactly the same turbine wheel and they are claiming 850hp for the Gen2 version has got to raise alarm bells in regards to what they are prepared to suggest is doable.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Lithium

[whatsisname]

Hopefully we won't have to wait long to see what they are actually capable of.

Someone's got to give it a go and see what they are capable of in the real world.

My FP GT3586R ran out of puff at 464kW @ 25psi. We tried a larger dump and made almost no difference (1.7kW peak - although decent area under the curve improvement) and was about to trial a 1.06 housing to see if the trade off in response would be worth the supposed small top end gain. Then the 84RS arrived.

Additional head porting, slightly longer duration and higher lift cams and a switch to the HTZ comp wheel would no doubt help the GT3586R. But for the cost of all that I'm most of the way to getting a GTX3584RS.

[jet_r31]

Id just build my own turbo.

Get a 84mm  11 blade  comp wheel of ebay and the 6.35mm Gt37 shaft. turbine ..least you know it will work..lol

If the standard gen2 gtx3582 works like all the 84mm  gtx style Kts 11 blader  gt3582 hi flow out there(must be close), then on a barra it will work well and on everything

else it will be laggy for the power it makes driving that big oversize comp wheel

remember garrett where the people also quoting big power from there gtw3884 turbos..950hp..lmao

cheers

darren