Limit Of 2 X 044's On E85

[Piggaz]

Hey guys. Steve (N1 GTR) and I were discussing this today while we were running the lines to my surge tank. I understand not many people will be able to answer this as it is a shitload of power but, does anyone know the limit of 2 X bosch 044's on E85?

We are both running very similar setups.... although I am a 2.8 and Steve is a 3.0 litre. Same cams and turbo's. Steve is currently making 455 RWKW at 24 psi.... My car will be on the dyno tomorrow and Friday shoving 2 bar down its throat and hopefully making 500 rwkw +..... if the pumps can flow that much. Will be interestng either way.

[N1GTR]

Yes keen as all hell to hear others actual experience, not guesswork

[HYPED6]

Hey guys. Steve (N1 GTR) and I were discussing this today while we were running the lines to my surge tank. I understand not many people will be able to answer this as it is a shitload of power but, does anyone know the limit of 2 X bosch 044's on E85?

We are both running very similar setups.... although I am a 2.8 and Steve is a 3.0 litre. Same cams and turbo's. Steve is currently making 455 RWKW at 24 psi.... My car will be on the dyno tomorrow and Friday shoving 2 bar down its throat and hopefully making 500 rwkw +..... if the pumps can flow that much. Will be interestng either way.

There are too many variables. One is Voltage. 044's do pump quite a bit more the better the voltage in a 12-15 volt system.

Another is how long you need to generate that power for. Sounds funny but think of it this way.

2 x 044's at 40 psi will flow around 7 Liters a min. Say your surge tank is 3 liters and your in tank pump can flow 3 liters a min at 0 psi.

Now say your 1600cc injectors are at 75% duty. So thats 1200cc per cylinder and 7.2 (7200cc) liters a min is being consumed.

Now, Hold your engine flat for 10 seconds or an average power run.

So your engine will consume 1.2 Liters from your surge tank. Would have returned nothing from the fuel system but your in tank has supplied 500cc of fuel.

Now hold your engine flat for 40 seconds.

You will consume 4.8 liters of fuel. Again nothing is being returned from your rail. Your in tank pump has supplied 2 liters soo all up you have had 5 liters if fuel available and only used 4.8........

Now hold it flat for a minute.

[WHITER33GTS-T]

Yes keen as all hell to hear others actual experience, not guesswork

Same

[HYPED6]

A real world example.

I ran these numbers on an engine we where doing development on. 2.5 6 cylinder.

Had 2 x 044 and a 3 liter surge tank. Wasn't even making 600rwhp through an auto and we where running 30% Meth and 70% 98.

The engine was tuned to perfection on the dyno. Even as far as Indervidual cylinder EGT's so we knew where weren't going to melt anything.

Now I wish I had have run the numbers earlier because the thing made it 380 meters of a 400 meter drag run and melted 2 pistons.

We now have a 20 liter surge tank and 3 x 044's

[Piggaz]

Yeah fair call.

Both surges are are about 5 litres. Nismo pump feeding both i think (well mine atleast). Now thats not exacatly under pressure like it in feeding the engine... so in theory it should be able to flow more. Injectors are ID 2000's but really i shouldnt be any higher then 60% duty (but hey i could be proved wrong)

So 60% of 2000 is 1.2 x 6 = 7.2 litres a minute.

Steve and I sorta had a play around with figures today. We came up with 518 RWKW. Obviously that is VERY rough but I think both of us are going to be touch and go with 2 pumps. Stupid E85 and its mega thirst!

[Piggaz]

A real world example.

I ran these numbers on an engine we where doing development on. 2.5 6 cylinder.

Had 2 x 044 and a 3 liter surge tank. Wasn't even making 600rwhp through an auto and we where running 30% Meth and 70% 98.

The engine was tuned to perfection on the dyno. Even as far as Indervidual cylinder EGT's so we knew where weren't going to melt anything.

Now I wish I had have run the numbers earlier because the thing made it 380 meters of a 400 meter drag run and melted 2 pistons.

We now have a 20 liter surge tank and 3 x 044's

That is not good news! I got no room for a 3rd pump dammit!

[N1GTR]

Hyped6 we both have id2000's, twin 044's have their own lines direct to the fuel rail (no stupid y pieces here), Paul has a NISMO lift pump but I've got another 044 intank

We didn't check voltage today, we had no time. I'd like to know what voltage mine runs at now!

[HYPED6]

Yeah fair call.

Both surges are are about 5 litres. Nismo pump feeding both i think (well mine atleast). Now thats not exacatly under pressure like it in feeding the engine... so in theory it should be able to flow more. Injectors are ID 2000's but really i shouldnt be any higher then 60% duty (but hey i could be proved wrong)

So 60% of 2000 is 1.2 x 6 = 7.2 litres a minute.

Steve and I sorta had a play around with figures today. We came up with 518 RWKW. Obviously that is VERY rough but I think both of us are going to be touch and go with 2 pumps. Stupid E85 and its mega thirst!

I have found E85 Not that bad. Yes you use a lot, but EGT's are much lower and really to get the most out of it you need to be measuring them.

Think 3025 35r, 24 psi on 98 Lambda of 0.78 EGT's nudging 800c Around 490rwhp

Same engine 24psi E85 0.8 Lambda EGT's 700c 520 rwhp

Then we lean it out, 0.85, 0.9, 0.95 where we ended up. EGT's 770c Measured at the Hottest cylinder 560rwhp

Going from 0.78 to 0.95 made the fuel usage not to bad. But defiantly need EGT's to get the best out of it.

[HYPED6]

Hyped6 we both have id2000's, twin 044's have their own lines direct to the fuel rail (no stupid y pieces here), Paul has a NISMO lift pump but I've got another 044 intank

We didn't check voltage today, we had no time. I'd like to know what voltage mine runs at now!

Just drop your return line off your reg and run into a measuring container. Start your engine and wait 15 sec.

Thats the best way to measure how much flow you have at system voltage.

But you also have to remember, as pressuer increases flow decreases. So as your 1:1 reg starts working your fuel pump flow will decrease.

[Piggaz]

I might have to drop my fuel pressre sensor back in for the tune Steve. Watch that Fuel pressure like a hawk!

[Piggaz]

Hyped6 we both have id2000's, twin 044's have their own lines direct to the fuel rail (no stupid y pieces here), Paul has a NISMO lift pump but I've got another 044 intank

We didn't check voltage today, we had no time. I'd like to know what voltage mine runs at now!

We will chuck a multimetre at the pumps tomorrow before we leave mine. Being directly off the battery it should be whatever that is!

[N1GTR]

Just drop your return line off your reg and run into a measuring container. Start your engine and wait 15 sec.

Thats the best way to measure how much flow you have at system voltage.

But you also have to remember, as pressuer increases flow decreases. So as your 1:1 reg starts working your fuel pump flow will decrease.

Will do when it's back at the tuners

I'm not sure if the lift pump is setup properly through the ecu (autronic sm4), but say the lift pump 044 is turned up to max flow under WOT, what sort of flow is that going to see into the surge tank?

Neither of us are hard into drag racing, but I see your point about the size of the surge tank. If either of us held it flat for 1minute we would be in jail. On a circuit day the longest WOT is eastern creek straight, at the drags (we will both get booted after one run) but that will be over much quicker than the ec straight. Which makes me think of time to fill the tank back up for example we go WOT down a straight for 30 seconds, then brakes, then back on throttle. What sort of flow will the surge tank take during the braking time (I know this isn't easy at all)

[N1GTR]

I might have to drop my fuel pressre sensor back in for the tune Steve. Watch that Fuel pressure like a hawk!

I'm good at sitting and watching, as you saw today

Plug it in and I'll watch it

[N1GTR]

We will chuck a multimetre at the pumps tomorrow before we leave mine. Being directly off the battery it should be whatever that is!

Doh, forgot what equipment you have there from work

Might have to borrow it for mine next week

[Piggaz]

I'm good at sitting and watching, as you saw today

Plug it in and I'll watch it

LOL. No comment.

Doh, forgot what equipment you have there from work

Might have to borrow it for mine next week

Yeah mate. Take it anytime you want. Its mine so yeah whatever.

The Nismo intank pump flows 4.6L/min at 3.0kg/cm2.. BUT it wont be at 3bar (close enough) so it shuld flow more. It would be nice to have 2 pumps lifting to the surge but really I think thats overkill. Might be a question for Rob from RIPS? He would know. That bloke is a nutter!

[WHITER33GTS-T]

Sounds like my setup will be very similar to yours with the nismo lift, 5lt (atleast) surge tank, twin 044s, twin lines to the rail. I just havent got the ID2000s yet.

Am interested to see your results.

[Piggaz]

^^^ with any luck I will have the results on Friday arvo. The good thing about this is there will be two maps done.... 98 and E85. Same dyno, same tuner, same setup 1 day apart.

[NYTSKY]

Same here, Nismo lift, 2x044s, surge tank, twin entry rail, ID2000s, lines front to back etc etc.

My mates GTR made high 500awkw before they put a 3rd one in. Now makes 720awkw

[R31Nismoid]

Yes keen as all hell to hear others actual experience, not guesswork

even results can vary... have a look @ your car vs destrukn, huge variation on E85 vs injector duty/use