Engine Blown On Dyno

[VSPECT]

If he never pushed the car, why did he want more power?

well he didnt drive it enough for him to push it often and he is a sensible driver so didnt do it on the roads...i had to force him to go with me on the fwy and after plenty of times he only went once....he loves his cars and loves working on them and doing mods to them....therefore mods for more power....

pull the motor down and see what caused it first. could have been oil starvation or anything.

also they said it was pinging with the fuel that was in there... how long had your mate been driving it with the new mods before he took the car to them? sure he drove like a grandma when he was trying to drain the fuel, but what about before he went to the tuner? he's just put his car back together with all those new parts, i bet he would have given it a bit of a belting when he took it out for its first drive... while it would have been knocking

when he placed the new parts to together i was with him and he didnt belt it ...his revs didnt go above 3k or so...just so all the parts wear in....i remeber he booted it twice i think to make sure the new parts could handle high revs on the dyno....he did drive it (normal driving) around for a fair while...well enough for the parts to wear in before he gave it to the tuner....the tuner was informed about the mods at the start...

2-3 seconds of detonation can break an engine easy. Pick your failure. Broken ring lands, or spun bearings as a result of the rod bearings taking a hammering.

Also, by "its a 100k old engine thats been modded and leaned on", White R32 meant an engine thats been tuned to within an inch of its life. Not an engine that has been tuned with a lean air/fuel ratio.

Most, if not all tuners tuning random cars off the street will always tune to the safe side of things. This means a little richer than makes optimal power and a little less ignition advance in order to keep it safe.

Only when you show up at a workshop with a bucket of money and request a massive horsepower goal will a tuner go for broke on a tune. And in some of those situations a potential engine failure during tuning/R&D is factored into the quotation.

As for the evo, only a forensic examination will tell the story.

what is my mate looking for? just to make sure the tuner is not covering his mistakes...if he did any...should my mate be with him when he is pulling the motor apart or the cause of the engine to blow cant be hidden no matter whos fault is it...

Not sure about you guys, but every dyno (three) that I've taken my car to, the tuner has given me an exclusion of liability form to sign...

ya i thought so...but he didnt sign any sort of paper work like that...i was pretty sure i did that too when i got my car tuned....

THANKS GUYS for your support and advices....me and my mate are fairly new to this kind of industry so not sure what the rules and regulations are...more info the better is for him to know whats the best option he got right now....

[VSPECT]

As sad as it is it is rarely a tuner fault, i dont know this car or situation but by the sounds of it and the mods a tune should not realy kill it... i mean it would have to be pinking BADLY for a long time to blow up or run lean for A LONG time to blow up. Yet a slight oil starvation at some point in time could have burnt bearings etc and it was just its time..

i dont know, but to be honest unless you heard it on the dyno detonating its head off (or a dead wideband sensor) it could be anything.

NO you dont know this car...your shop was considered but for my mate it was easier with the tuner he choose...so he went there instead... Advice from a tuner is highly appriceated here....

Like you said i had the same opinion.....according to the tuner the oil temp reached just above 120 degrees while tuning the car...then he switched the car off...when he started again it was making metal grinding noise.....WIERD...if i was a tuner i wouldn be letting the oil to reach that high temp...would that be monitored closely? i would have been switching the car off when it got close to 110...the car wasnt pinking badly....it was running fairly smoothly after my mate played with the accel cable like mentioned in the first post....

with the mods,the tuner could get the car to pull above 190awkw....and line on the dyno went up and flattened out...ill get my mate to give a the dyno sheet so i can scan and show you how the first tune looked like so you minght be able to tell where the fault was....

[white180sx]

Hi VSPECT,

I think regardless of the issue, i tend to agree with most that it would be very difficult in getting the workshop to claim responsibility. (unless there was a clear case of neglect)

Id hate to be a tuner as generally they have a pretty hard job. (This is definately one of those cases).

One thing which might come back to bite your friend is the fact that he installed the parts himself. (I assume he is not a qualified machanic).

Also a bigger turbo, cams and fuel pump were installed without upgrading injectors or ecu which could have also caused problems.

Its never nice when a engine goes but hope your mate gets it back up and running.

[Birds]

Bottom line of it all: performance modifications in the automotive industry = at your own risk / no warranty.

It sucks when this happens, but that's cars for you. Cars are designed with factory specifications in mind...sure you can take them past that, but that doesn't mean they were designed for it.

[VSPECT]

thanks mate...but he did get the apexi pfc and the tuner was tuning with that ecu...injectors was in the initial plan but dont remember why he didnt do it...anyhow he just told the tuner to tune the car so it runs nicely and gets a bit more power...

yes he is not a qualified mechanic but his work on cars is really good....he does do a great job...but yes i did also mention to him that it could be that he worked on the car himself...i can ensure he didn pull shortcuts in the installations and bought the required tools to do the installations properly...he didnt get the parts put in by the mechanic coz he wanted to do it himself as thats what he likes to do....

[STATUS]

NO you dont know this car...your shop was considered but for my mate it was easier with the tuner he choose...so he went there instead... Advice from a tuner is highly appriceated here....

Like you said i had the same opinion.....according to the tuner the oil temp reached just above 120 degrees while tuning the car...then he switched the car off...when he started again it was making metal grinding noise.....WIERD...if i was a tuner i wouldn be letting the oil to reach that high temp...would that be monitored closely? i would have been switching the car off when it got close to 110...the car wasnt pinking badly....it was running fairly smoothly after my mate played with the accel cable like mentioned in the first post....

with the mods,the tuner could get the car to pull above 190awkw....and line on the dyno went up and flattened out...ill get my mate to give a the dyno sheet so i can scan and show you how the first tune looked like so you minght be able to tell where the fault was....

the ecu tune file and tear down of the engine is the only thing that will tell you what went wrong.

On another note i have a good customer with a engine i built for him 8k worth of SR, i get a call from him @ a comp in Tassie saying its running on 3 and its f**ked..... says its pinging so bad (a so called expert @ he track diagnosed it) it closed a plug gap... i explained thats impossible and only something hitting a plug can do that (expert @ track in background can be heard saying crap tune etc etc)... i told him to swap out the plug and see how it runs...

i then freak out for 3 days wondering how and why only to find out his new throttle body he installed himself had dropped a butterfly screw... and the engine subsequently ate it... this could have been a classic case of blame tuner first then find facts later

Lucky this customer did not get all high and mighty when it did happen and listened to reason and subsequently found the issue himself a few days later, often it is hard to find the reason for failure without a thorough going over of the car.

If it is down in comp and breathing then yes it could be pinking or lean (tune related), if it spun a bearing chances are its an unrelated engine failure.

[STATUS]

.....according to the tuner the oil temp reached just above 120 degrees while tuning the car...then he switched the car off...when he started again it was making metal grinding noise.....WIERD...if i was a tuner i wouldn be letting the oil to reach that high temp...would that be monitored closely? i would have been switching the car off when it got close to 110...the car wasnt pinking badly....it was running fairly smoothly after my mate played with the accel cable like mentioned in the first post....

120 degrees is not ideal but provided the oil was of decent quality it should not be THE contributing cause, track cars often see 120 degrees... not ideal but not the instant engine killer either.

A customers oil cooler thermostat stick closed and the oil temp hovered around 150c for an enduro event (300v 15w-50) and on tear down (2 years later) there was minimal evidence of abnormal wear

[VSPECT]

he was using castrol 5w 60....that oil is meant to be one of the best....well thats what i use on my car...not to start the which oil is better convo...just wanted to put it out there if that might be of help...well according to what the tuner sounded like he was kinda blaming the oil cooler and when the oil got hot and when he started it again, he found the enigne to be blown...anyhow....ill talk to my mate and get the tuner to pull the engine apart and ill post pix on to see what he says about it and to what you guys think about it...

[chocco]

I live by a common rule of thumb when playing with modded cars...

Its the price YOU pay to PLAY.

[STATUS]

he was using castrol 5w 60....that oil is meant to be one of the best....well thats what i use on my car...not to start the which oil is better convo...just wanted to put it out there if that might be of help...well according to what the tuner sounded like he was kinda blaming the oil cooler and when the oil got hot and when he started it again, he found the enigne to be blown...anyhow....ill talk to my mate and get the tuner to pull the engine apart and ill post pix on to see what he says about it and to what you guys think about it...

did the owner fit up the oil cooler? was it a new addition?

[VSPECT]

no...think it came with the car..why dont they usually have them?

[STATUS]

no...think it came with the car..why dont they usually have them?

no i have had a few customers install them @ home and then come in for a tune or whatever and ive found the lines crossed so it had pressure but no flow.... this will kill an engine quick as hell.

sorry man but i cant think of anything else off the top of my head.

[Mckhenry]

Hi guys, My mate has an Evo 7 with 100k on the clock. When bought the car months ago, the compression test gave great results showing the engine is healthy.

Before giving it to the tuner, my mate installed these:-

G20 turbo

272 cams

fuel pump

When he took it to the tuner, the car was running perfectly but since he wanted to put in a Power FC, he went to a tuner to tune the car with standard injectors.

When he returned to the workshop at the end of the day to pick his car up, they said it was pining (not sure how to spell it)...so they asked him to come back and run the petrol down and come with a fresh tank of fuel....

During when he was running the fuel down, the car was not idling properly and at the lights it nearly stalls and on start ups it stalled after approx 30 secs later.... but he loosened the accelerator cable and that fixed all the problems he felt his car was having after the first tune....

When he gave the car the second time, he left the car at the tuner in a perfect condition and was not making any sort of noise and was running healthy....But unfortunately he walked into the workshop later that day to find his engine was blown while they were tuning the car...(bearings, rods, crank all gone and prob other parts of the engine too due to them damaged)

Now the question is that where does my mate stand and how should he go to pursue the matter....should the tuner fix the engine at no cost? or is he responsible for the damage....Noting he didn't sign any paper work saying he will be responsible for any damage like we do on the dyno days....

If you can prove the dyno operator was negligent then you should be able to claim some compensation, but you can only do that by proving he leaned the engine out too much or too far advanced, but how do you do that?

I had a gearbox blown (auto) with a negligent mechanic which cost $1,400 to rectify. I think a lot of mechanics try to rectify problems on cars on the dyno where they should be using their heads, not readouts.

Maybe they just put too much power through a mature bottom end??

[Sunkist]

To be honest and speaking from personal experience.

Give up and just move on with the car.

My experience; My dad reversed my car into a gate and shatterd my rear window. The panel beater in Dandenong had to fix it. dropped the car off to him, everything fine. no funny noises nothing, the car was serviced about two weeks prior.

Stupidly enough he tells me I can only pick up the car at 5pm(closing time) on a friday. (6days to repair a window?)

pick up the car, they left rapidly before me, and as I drive off i noticed my oil light came up and my turbo was blown.

I find a red P-plate in the car and see markings on the window showing where it was stuck. I have never been on my Red p's in this car.

I had my lawyer review the case, even with the pictures of an extra 130k's on the clock(i took pictures previous to giving them the car)

The lawyers, and three other mechanics said with a car its extremely hard for them to be proven guilty of"thrashing" or Neglect base on the previous modifications that are already in the car. as someone else said. Manafacturers make the car for a certain purpose/state/function. when you modify something, without an engineers certificate to say the mod is installed correctly, "you will have no leg to stand on."

i know having a blown turbo is different to a blown engine, but the car that i have, it cost me all up around $2500 to replace the turbo anyway. i was lucky to get away with not having to pay lawyer fee's as they are all family lawyers.

i wouldnt waste the time, effort, money, to persue something that you only have a 30% chance of winning. best bet is to contact consumer affairs at most. they'll tell you what they think of the matter. wont do much though.

oh its safe to say that I'm an Ombudsman so i do kinda deal with this conflict of interest crap. modified cars/law dont work well with eachother.

hope I helped.

Aaron

[STATUS]

To be honest and speaking from personal experience.

Give up and just move on with the car.

My experience; My dad reversed my car into a gate and shatterd my rear window. The panel beater in Dandenong had to fix it. dropped the car off to him, everything fine. no funny noises nothing, the car was serviced about two weeks prior.

Stupidly enough he tells me I can only pick up the car at 5pm(closing time) on a friday. (6days to repair a window?)

pick up the car, they left rapidly before me, and as I drive off i noticed my oil light came up and my turbo was blown.

I find a red P-plate in the car and see markings on the window showing where it was stuck. I have never been on my Red p's in this car.

I had my lawyer review the case, even with the pictures of an extra 130k's on the clock(i took pictures previous to giving them the car)

The lawyers, and three other mechanics said with a car its extremely hard for them to be proven guilty of"thrashing" or Neglect base on the previous modifications that are already in the car. as someone else said. Manafacturers make the car for a certain purpose/state/function. when you modify something, without an engineers certificate to say the mod is installed correctly, "you will have no leg to stand on."

i know having a blown turbo is different to a blown engine, but the car that i have, it cost me all up around $2500 to replace the turbo anyway. i was lucky to get away with not having to pay lawyer fee's as they are all family lawyers.

i wouldnt waste the time, effort, money, to persue something that you only have a 30% chance of winning. best bet is to contact consumer affairs at most. they'll tell you what they think of the matter. wont do much though.

oh its safe to say that I'm an Ombudsman so i do kinda deal with this conflict of interest crap. modified cars/law dont work well with eachother.

hope I helped.

Aaron

^^^ fark i would have lost my shit.....

[MrStabby]

the ecu tune file and tear down of the engine is the only thing that will tell you what went wrong.

+1

IMO you should attempt to establish the cause of the failure, otherwise you might blow up the next motor...

First do the simple/cheap things as Trent mentioned - check the tune file is sensible, check the oil cooler is not plumbed backwards etc. Then if you dont find anything you could pay to have the engine inspected. Obviously you'll need to find someone with the correct expertise and qualifications, and who will write a report that meets the requirements to be used as evidence in court.

If the engine shows signs of damage caused by the tune you can then consider taking action against the tuner. Or perhaps you may find your mate stuffed the cam install....

[VB-]

which panel beater aaron?

[Birds]

I'm fairly sure I would have given the panelbeater some DIY projects for the next couple of weeks

[VSPECT]

ya think he is going back tommorrow and will suss it out....he already srouced another engine and the tuner might be helping him with pricing...reading the thread my mate gave up on persuing the matter against the tuner but will persue the reason for the blow up...will keep you guys updated...

thanks all for you responses....really appreciate it...

[mid life crisis]

ever stop too think it may have been something your mate did when he build the motor did he check for bearing crush to check the clearances did he check piston to bore measurement did he check ring gaps does he own his own micrometers and verniers has his torque wrench ever been checked for accuracy .

there is lot more to building a engine than putting the parts in .

thats what you pay a engine builder for your paying for there knowledge and experience as well as there time

cheers dean