Kando Dynamics Turbo

[jiri styles]

Figured I'd do an update on my setup.

I made 235kw on 18psi, RB25 TD06 20G 10cm.

All you cool cats worked out my intercooler was shit house, you were all right!

I've stuck to return flow as I want it the engine bay as factory looking as possible, but a much better setup.

Ended up taking it for a drive on Monday, left the boost controller on low just to be safe. Low boost was set at 14psi previously, and with the new intercooler it's pumping out 20psi! Crazy how much restriction the old cooler setup made. Pulls like a freight train now too which is great. Also feels less laggy too, win win win!

So thank you for all your input lads

hey man, whats the rev range it starts to paty at?, and is it laggy or is it just right , share the info )))))

[Frosty]

LOL...really? Something very different between our setups then. I was hitting 18psi at 3,200rpm or something stupid and show was over with the thing losing its pull over 6,500rpm. It was mega grunty with the 8cm housing. And that was with cams at 0 and only a 2/3 tune.

I like the way the 12cm drives but on a very rough tune with no ignition the 12cm housing has generally added 800-1,000rpm to response. Would be far easier and nicer to drive with the way it delivers its power.

Will see if we get any of theloss in response back with the changes we made today....the car got pulled off the dyno due to another car needing some urgent work.

Will keep looking for a 10cm housing but think the T67 will go on before a find the right sized housing for the 20G. That will be the real test as I am pretty sure we have maxed out the compressor on the 20G so the question is will the billet wheel flow more with the TD06-12cm vs the T67-25G 10cm . That will be the real interesting test. Smaller, lower flowing turbine with a 78mm cast compressor wheel VS a larger higher flowing turbine with a lighter, smaller billet 73mm compressor with the larger 12cm housing.

I would go straight for the proven 10cm if I had one so ...no other choice then to waste tuners dyno time with my games

was using standard manifold with external gate and plazmaman plenum! internals were slightly modified on the turbo when it was rebuilt so dont know the exact specs but couldnt get any top end out of it....

ill check my dyno sheet as i have it laying around somewhere

[Roy]

Thats the trick...std manifold. They do mess with performance rather badly. I know people rate them and say they work...but from a performance standpoint jn my view they dont work But understand the many other reasons why you may run a std manifold

So I suspect a car with an aftermarket exhaust manifold on E85 could live with an 8cm housing longer then a car running the std manifold. I think the other catch is I dont think the backl pressure and heat woudl allow a 98 setup to work well either.

[Frosty]

mine was run on 98 and 20psi didnt have any issues with heat which was good but if it was swapped to e85 and a custom manny id say 310wkw would be easily achieved at the same boost level on the 8cm housing and would prob help with the lousy bottom end of the rev range

[Dale FZ1]

I was hitting 18psi at 3,200rpm or something stupid and show was over with the thing losing its pull over 6,500rpm. It was mega grunty with the 8cm housing. And that was with cams at 0 and only a 2/3 tune.

I like the way the 12cm drives but on a very rough tune with no ignition the 12cm housing has generally added 800-1,000rpm to response. Would be far easier and nicer to drive with the way it delivers its power.

Will keep looking for a 10cm housing but think the T67 will go on before a find the right sized housing for the 20G. That will be the real test as I am pretty sure we have maxed out the compressor on the 20G so the question is will the billet wheel flow more with the TD06-12cm vs the T67-25G 10cm . That will be the real interesting test. Smaller, lower flowing turbine with a 78mm cast compressor wheel VS a larger higher flowing turbine with a lighter, smaller billet 73mm compressor with the larger 12cm housing.

Troy did you use the H4 turbine rotor with this RB25 + TD06-20G 12cm combo? From those comments it appears you have? Comments are a bit too cryptic to decipher, and remember this is a Kando/Kinugawa thread if you are using a custom build.

Sounds like impressions are that it currently delivers in a progressive manner, and winding some ignition advance into the thing will help that particular setup with regards to spool and bottom end torque.

If I'm correctly interpreting your specs to be tested, I reckon the T67-25G will come on easier.earlier but then perform roughly the same across 4000-6000ish. Bigger turbine flow in the TDO6-20G will help scavenging up towards the 7000 mark but then your comp flow seems to be the limiting factor and not much expectation that it can exceed 310rwkW. The T67 runners seem to be able to push things up towards the mid 340 mark via more boost.

Is the target driveability? If your R32 is seeing mostly/only track use then "best" turbine flow will certainly help the engine. Maybe stick a set of Albins 1-2-3 gears into that RB20 box and keep things spinning in the happy rpm range.

Feed us some more information please.

[Roy]

Not meaning to be cryptic other than the fact that I now swim in muddy waters with a farking RB25

The 20G (Will refer to it as that) is the same old turbo I have run since 2003. It is a 55/65mm 12 blade turbine. It is running the 12cm housing

The 73HTA (Will refer to it as that) is a little bit custom. It runs a FP 73 HTA compressor and a newer 11 blade version 55/65mm turbone. I am going to swap the 20G 12 cm housing onto this turbo so this is going to be a good bacl to back test

The T67-25G runs a 10cm and is all as Trust shipped it. Ditto my TD06H-25G (Will refer to it as the 25G) with 10cm. That means the T67 has a 54/61mm 11 blade turbine and the 25G has the largest turbine at 58.8/67.2 12 blade turbine

I am hoping the 73HTA turbo gives me better than T67 response and the same, if not more power. Ultimately thats what I am hoping. It is being back to backed with the 20G just to understand the differences between all the turbos and its a relatively easy bolt off-on proposition.

I expect the T67 is the fall back option if the 73HTA doesnt work out, even if lack of performance can be put down to the 12cm housing.

Posting in this thread as Kando do so many Mistu based turbos seemed the best place to compare the results of Mitsu based turbo combinations

[Dale FZ1]

I am hoping the 73HTA turbo gives me better than T67 response and the same, if not more power.

I expect the T67 is the fall back option if the 73HTA doesnt work out, even if lack of performance can be put down to the 12cm housing.

Posting in this thread as Kando do so many Mistu based turbos seemed the best place to compare the results of Mitsu based turbo combinations

I understand better now, thanks. It's good to see things posted in here, definitely provides broad comparison for Mitsu and Mitsu-based turbos.

I can recall some pics you posted up some time ago of the TDO6 turbine - quite a "flat" blade form that looked pretty restrictive to passing gases? Presumably by going from 12 down to 11 blade its flow capacity will have been increased, though it might take a few more rpm to get moving. Reduced wheel mass will give lower inertia and hopefully even up most of the difference

The SL2 and H4 turbine blade shape/forms appear broadly similar, much more "open" than "flat" at the discharge zone. They both look like they should pass gases pretty easily and offer good flow efficiency. How efficient they are in drive and spooling the compressor is going to be interesting for sure.

Good luck , hopefully the 73HTA spec will do what you want of it.

I tend to agree that the turbine housing will be the crucial factor in getting the best match to your big-bore RB25...

[ARTZ]

Thats the trick...std manifold. They do mess with performance rather badly. I know people rate them and say they work...but from a performance standpoint jn my view they dont work But understand the many other reasons why you may run a std manifold

So I suspect a car with an aftermarket exhaust manifold on E85 could live with an 8cm housing longer then a car running the std manifold. I think the other catch is I dont think the backl pressure and heat woudl allow a 98 setup to work well either.

to be honest i dont think and 8cm on an aftermarket manifold is really going to work much better than a 10cm on a standard manifold...personlly if i wanted any more response from my setup I reckon a better bet would be a GTR intake

[Roy]

I doubt a 6 throttle setup would make any different to spool and response. Throttle response would be sharpened but i doubt its going to make any significant difference to where the turbo spools. If you run the std RB25 inlet then I can see it adding lay even it if does sharpen throttle response. I have a Blitz adaptor kit which I plan on using but no way I am putting that on and testing differences. That will be going on my other motor and its going to be very different so will never truly know. But my engine builder has put 26 internals into a few RB25s as he sees that as a better street setup than going to RB26 mostly due to the NVCS and the long runners of the std RB25 plenum.

That all said, squeezing that air into an 8cm housing makes a difference...how big I dont know. Will throw up the graph of the 1/2-2/3 tune to see how it looked. It was way more responsive than a GT-RS on an RB25etc

[robots]

You do know what E85 stands for ? ~ response and midrange.

With the amount of ignition you can chuck in there anything will become responsive

[Roy]

I didnt find that. All it did was allow me to run more ignition and boost and make more power. Didnt do anythign meaningful for response. ...seat of pans was that it was perhaps laggier but that may have been the result of too high an expectation for results

[scotty nm35]

No magical response gains here either.

It will however allow you to run a smaller turbo to a similar power for a better result I guess.

[toffy]

*edit* stupid phone

[Roy]

*edit* stupid RB25s

No matter what we do with the gate, boost falls over from 19psi to 14psi as soon as the gate opens.

If anyone has any ideas then I am all ears. As is it is only making 280rwkws with 14psi from about 4,500rpm to red line. Ramps up to 19psi nicely at about 350rpm earlier than the RB20 (even with the much larger rear housing) but then just boost immediately trails off

So the 20G would be a rather good setup and may come back and keep it if I can get my head around how to stop the boost drop off. If I could get it to hold 18psi I am pretty confident the compressor would be maxed out and it would have 300-310rwkws and a good spread of power and torque with the ability to ram ignition down its throat in the top end to keep the torque flat. But suspect I am maxing out the flow of the turbo so the 45mm gate may be too big for the setup and probably need a 38mm gate or something...thats a change I am not willing to make so.

The 73HTA is on and ready to be rolled onto the dyno once I get a M11x1.5 to 3AN connector for oil feed. Hopefully the boost issue isnt repeated as I hope there isn't something wrong with the gate.

[scotty nm35]

It's not the size of the gate, it's how you have it plumbed up. I can run 33 psi flat off a 14psi spring on my 45mm gate.

[Roy]

How should I plumb it other than how i plumbed the Greddy manifold and gate with the 20G with AVC-R and off the spring. The 6boost on the 20 with Turbosmart gate and Blitz ID and off the spring? Always plumbed my gates the way I have and never had a problem. Even with my lil RB20 I ony had an 8psi in my original Greddy gate and was able to run a pretty solid 20psi dropping to only 19psi at the top end.

I only know the one way and it has worked in the past. Like I said, I am all ears, how would you suggest?

[scotty nm35]

There are many ways, if the boost is holding the gate open when it cracks you either need heavier springs or boost pressure helping to hold the gate closed. There is probably different pressure in the manifold, or the gate flows better due to it's placement.

Here are the Turbosmart instructions, there are multiple ways to set up the solenoid in there. I use a different method using a 5 port solenoid as I was explaining in the BW thread. Which way is yours set up now?

http://www.turbosmart.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/TS-0506-1001_Hypergate45_MAY_12_rev-2.pdf

[Roy]

Yeh, they dont spell out anything different to what has been tried and doing. Like I said have had numerous different manifold and gate and EBC and manual boost controllers on my car the 9-10 years I ran the 20G. I bought more springs and have tried combinations of 7psi inner, 3psi inner, 11psi middle and 7psi outer with the associated manual boost controllers/bleeds etc.

Anyway, got a good feel for when it hits and how it ramps and we know the compressor will max out around 310rwks on this dyno. So time to compare the power and ramp with the 73HTA

[Lithium]

Quite strange issue, seems you have had a few mysterious power limitation issues over time with this project. Fingers crossed the HTA plays ball more enthusiastically - when is it due to be tuned?

[Roy]

Today or tomoz. The boost control looked ok on the 8cm. Boost was falling over but didnt lose too much sleep as just wanted to get some baseline runs and get a feel for the characteristics. But it wasnt that far away and if we spent more time on the boost feel we could have got it closer than we have been able to with the 12cm.

With the 12cm a bit more energy was put into trying to get it to hold boost. Didn't exhaust ourselves as I dont want to spend too much $ fiddling around when the setups are going to get swapped. Main thing is we get to see the character and idea of response and numbers. But curious that it wasn't anywhere as simple as getting the other combos to hold boost.

I dont know about power limitations. 306rwkws out of an RB20 is a decent enough haul. But having had the car for 14 years with what has essentially been a number of 20G combinations over the years...everything generally experimented with has been at best a move sideways not forward. Goes to show how capable (basically the best setup) a std RB20 with std inlet plenum and std cams just with a genuine Greddy manifold-20G kit performs!

The only change I have made to my original setup that was an improvement was the change from 10cm housing to 8cm back in 2004. Other than that I didnt know I had the optimum setup at the time and have tried various things that were .... umm cash consuming Curiousity is a cruel mistress