Not At Fault Claim Need Advice

[krayzie32]

Just Had an Accident late lastnight and i was told by Police that because im a Provisional License Driver im At Fault by Default...

Surely This is Rubbish...

This is exactly what happened...

Its 10:50Pm Dark Quite Back streets

...Driver in front of happens to be going in same direction im travelling my brother and I can see up ahead that driver ahead is not using indicators just turning whereever she wants with no regard for whoevers behind...

Whilst behind driver still, followIng her as shes zipping into a quiet street and whilst following, driver suddenly stops veering to left side still no indicator,

I indicate to overtake on the right hand side as road has opened up and proceed to make my move...

As I overtake, other driver still no indicator, turns hard right into my front quarter and collects door & rear quarter on the way.  

(She was driving Mazda MX-5 i think she was turning it like it was a B-Double Truck) she was entering her driveway...

The cars were then moved to a more suitable location for detail swapping etc (In her driveway right in front of scene of accident)

   

Heres the thing...

Its my Mates Car (06' Mercedes CLK350 Elegance) Which i had just completed an Alternator Replacement on...

The Other Driver was a female Off-Duty Police Officer as she later revealed...

(My brother in the car with me witnessing the whole event unfold...)

She called her buddies (the police) and 3 Police Cars turn up with 4 Officers in each car in a matter of minutes

Basically all trying to shove breath testers down my throat, then after opnsulting with her and before hearing anything from me proceed to tell me i was on the wrong side of the road...

I explain my side of the story, they shut me down with your a P-Plater, Rules State P-Platers are at fault regardless, (the front of her car hit my sides for goodness sake)

I Argued my case and then one officer shut me down with... "Youll be recieving an infringement for not displaying one of your P-Plates" 

I Mean the car was already Parked and Switched off, they were called to the scene after it happened can they even fine me for that...

I took down her drivers License details is that all i need???

Do i need a Contact number???

Where do i stand and how is this resolved???

My mates Insurance or Hers???

Any help would be appreciated.  

Thanks in Advance...  

Edited January 4, 2011 by krayzie32

[Daleo]

Being at fault because you are a P plater is a load of bollocks, pure & simple. Rules state nothing of the sort.

Overtaking a turning vehicle on a single lane carriageway (unless I've misunderstood you) however is a different kettle of fish.

Regardless of what she may or may not have been doing in front of you, you'll still be at fault if you overtook her as she was making the turn.

It's your responsibility to observe & react to what's happening in front of you, not the other drivers responsibility to have regard for what's happening behind them. If you thought what she was doing was dangerous, perhaps you should've opened up your gap even more, to allow for her stupidity/ unpredictability.

For example; If the driver in front has to make an emergency braking manoeuvre; is it their fault if you run up the back?

Nope, it's yours for not leaving enough room to react to the situation.

I'm sure there is a little "protecting their own" going on, but I don't see a way out, if you were on the wrong side of the road, and she's turned into the side of your mates car.

I would say you're going to be paying your mates excess, and probably covering any loss of no claim bonus if you're a good mate.

Sucks, but these things happen, being on your P's is sometimes a steep learning curve (we've all been there); you can only learn from it.

Edit; re-read my post, sounds a bit preachy, I'm not perfect, (made plenty of mistakes) but I wish someone had told me I was a buffoon at the time, I might've saved myself some money & stress.

Edited January 4, 2011 by Daleo

[Aussie_Delivered_R32_GTR]

Being at fault because you are a P plater is a load of bollocks, pure & simple. Rules state nothing of the sort.

Overtaking a turning vehicle on a single lane carriageway (unless I've misunderstood you) however is a different kettle of fish.

Regardless of what she may or may not have been doing in front of you, you'll still be at fault if you overtook her as she was making the turn.

It's your responsibility to observe & react to what's happening in front of you, not the other drivers responsibility to have regard for what's happening behind them. If you thought what she was doing was dangerous, perhaps you should've opened up your gap even more, to allow for her stupidity/ unpredictability.

For example; If the driver in front has to make an emergency braking manoeuvre; is it their fault if you run up the back?

Nope, it's yours for not leaving enough room to react to the situation.

I'm sure there is a little "protecting their own" going on, but I don't see a way out, if you were on the wrong side of the road, and she's turned into the side of your mates car.

I would say you're going to be paying your mates excess, and probably covering any loss of no claim bonus if you're a good mate.

Sucks, but these things happen, being on your P's is sometimes a steep learning curve (we've all been there); you can only learn from it.

Edit; re-read my post, sounds a bit preachy, I'm not perfect, (made plenty of mistakes) but I wish someone had told me I was a buffoon at the time, I might've saved myself some money & stress.

Well said............. You are 100% correct.

[Duncan]

yeah that sucks pretty hard.

I had the exact same thing happen (without the other drive being a cop of course) when I was on my Ps. They pulled to the left into the gutter and slowed almost to a stop....then turned right into a driveway after I had started to overtake. We ended up each fixing own damage.

I guess you might be able to win this (talk to a lawyer in the thread in this section), they did cause the accident by not indicating. But how will you prove it (2x untrustworthy kids vs 1x upstanding cop), and does that absolve you of all responsibility to overtake safely?

BTW if they really claimed, you are a p plater, so you are at fault....that might actually help if it did go further. Very brave of them to say that even as a "joke"

[evil_weevil]

blaming you as a P plater is rubbish!!!

I hope you guys have insurance and let them battle it out.

however being behind the car - it wont look good

it is best to get her licence, name, rego, address and contact #

more info to the insurer the better for you

they may also request a visual description such as a drawing of the event.

I guess being a copper, she is trying to intimidate you, dont let her.

[AlexanderWilde]

the P plater thing is a load of rubish, and i would get a lawyer to dispute that in court as the police cannot harass you like that and force blame on you cus of P plates, they are meant to be inparcial not help out theyr budies

and did she get the same treatment ? was she given a breth teast if not you can dispute police was not imparcial to you and your motorist rights violated

as for the crash you should have been payng more attencion but if she stopped (COMPLETE STOP) on the side of the road she cannot turn right unless she is signaling right witch would mean she did not indicate and did not look before leaving the curb (this is your only argument you could use)

but is a flaw argument as she did not indicate left to show she is stoping so its a gray area witch will be left to the magistrate

usualy you will loose cus ur word is against a cops word but with the police buliing you as they did u might change the magistrates mind

id say contact the insurance and organise for you to pay the excess and at teh same time contact a lawyer to put in a formal complaint for the oficers that did this rubish as it will go on theyr record and they will think 2ce doing it to somone else

[D_I_F]

Single lane (no markings) or 2 lanes with markings?

[GTR-N1]

^^^ and did the driver in front come to a full stop; and then pull out from the kerb ? ? ?...

or did she just go to the left in a single carriageway situation before going right ? ? ?

In the 1st instance, I believe you have a chance, and were not at fault.

In the 2nd instance, I believe you were at fault.

The fact that you're a P plater or she's a police officer is totally irrelevant.

[GTR R35]

As the others have said, you need to be more specific as to the point is she came to a complete stop.

If she did then she is at fault. I would also contact the duty seargent at the local police station and make a formal complaint as to how you were treated by the attending officer.

They have no right to be so beligerant towards you.

Funny thing I had the reverse happen to me. I was pulling out of a parking spot on a 2 lane road using my indicator. A car in the right most lane decided to move intot he middle lane and just clipped me.

He was an off duty cop and I had a ticket for not leaving the kerb with due caution. He called the police and they were there in 5 mins. I wished cops turned up that quick when I called them.

[D_I_F]

Well said Daleo, by taking into your version and if the road was single lane you are 100% at fault regardless if no indicators are used.

The cop may have gone about it the wrong way but I guess you cant ignore stats. Stats show under 25 year old is 20 times more likely to have an accident.

[jawrgy]

I Feel for u, but dont come to this forum for sympathy. Most people here a righteous ass holes. =D

[89CAL]

In all fairness, most people on here will only react badly when the situation calls for it

He's explained pretty well what has happened and people have asked for the line markings on the road which is a fair call. If there was unbroken white lines etc then it doesnt matter what the MX5 driver was doing, you were in the wrong at the time of the crash and that can be proven. Where as the other drivers faults can not. Being she was an off duty officer to as someone has said, she is going to get the benefit of the doubt, which is a bit unfair but just the way it is

If it was broken white lines then you have more of a chance of getting out of it

As for the P-Plate thing, I dont like your chances of fighting that. They are very picky and annoying when it comes to that, and I think because you were driving the car and its had an accident and one of your P-Plates wasnt on (or fell off? not sure) is not something they are going to overlook

Sorry to hear about it mate, and its unfortunate who you happened to run into and the circumstances etc. Hope it goes well

[Daleo]

I Feel for u, but dont come to this forum for sympathy. Most people here a righteous ass holes. =D

Hey jawrgy, are you serious?

Everyone so far has been fairly sympathetic and supportive to his cause, but I'm not going to piss in his pocket and tell him it's raining...

It seems like he's made an error, and unfortunately it happened that the victim/recipient is an off duty police officer.

Regardless of percieved negligence on the part of the other driver, and some apparent poor treatment by the attending officers, there are a few simple realities to deal with.

No one has passed judgement on his skill & abilities, nor are they "Police bashing". To be honest, I think this has been a fairly considered and reasonable discussion thus far.

You haven't really added anything new to the discussion, aside from a free hug and I don't really understand where you're coming from.

Enlighten me?

Edited January 5, 2011 by Daleo

[jawrgy]

Hey jawrgy, are you serious?

Everyone so far has been fairly sympathetic and supportive to his cause, but I'm not going to piss in his pocket and tell him it's raining...

It seems like he's made an error, and unfortunately it happened that the victim/recipient is an off duty police officer.

Regardless of percieved negligence on the part of the other driver, and some apparent poor treatment by the attending officers, there are a few simple realities to deal with.

No one has passed judgement on his skill & abilities, nor are they "Police bashing". To be honest, I think this has been a fairly considered and reasonable discussion thus far.

You haven't really added anything new to the discussion, aside from a free hug and I don't really understand where you're coming from.

Enlighten me?

Assuming the original posters story is true, to every detail with no exaggeration I see the off duty cop is in the wrong. As above have stated if he was on the wrong side of the road bla bla bla its his fault. In this instance i know people are going to find it hard to comprehend what im about to say but............. wait for it ....... "Common sense should prevail over the law". (TAKE A MOMENT, DONT REACT), Sure he may have been on the wrong side of the road but the car drove into him!!!!

What makes its worse is it was an off duty poo poo im sure her friends were highway patrol, they think they "save lives" all their good for is directing traffic when the lights arent work. But thats my opinion.

So the moral of the story here kids, even though some politician you have never met said you cannot overtake a retard driver because their is 50c line of unbroken paint on the road doesnt mean you are doing the wrong thing. In the eyes of the law you are but in the end you are doing the right thing trying to avoid a drop kick driver.

Society has the problem of not being able to determine right from wrong. they have to follow a strict set of arbitrary laws such as Australia road laws and if you break them, you are a criminal

[D_I_F]

Actually coming from an insurance backround its common sense not to over take this person in a single lane as the Merc driver has a duty of care. MX5 driver is in front, her lane she can do whatever she wants in it..

[Daleo]

Assuming the original posters story is true, to every detail with no exaggeration I see the off duty cop is in the wrong. As above have stated if he was on the wrong side of the road bla bla bla its his fault. In this instance i know people are going to find it hard to comprehend what im about to say but............. wait for it ....... "Common sense should prevail over the law". (TAKE A MOMENT, DONT REACT), Sure he may have been on the wrong side of the road but the car drove into him!!!!

What makes its worse is it was an off duty poo poo im sure her friends were highway patrol, they think they "save lives" all their good for is directing traffic when the lights arent work. But thats my opinion.

So the moral of the story here kids, even though some politician you have never met said you cannot overtake a retard driver because their is 50c line of unbroken paint on the road doesnt mean you are doing the wrong thing. In the eyes of the law you are but in the end you are doing the right thing trying to avoid a drop kick driver.

Society has the problem of not being able to determine right from wrong. they have to follow a strict set of arbitrary laws such as Australia road laws and if you break them, you are a criminal

Which I think is the reason people HAVEN'T been "righteous assholes" giving him shit about it.

When it comes down to a game of "He said, she said" who do you believe is going to win in this case? A P plater or a Police officer?

I don't like arbitrarily applied laws to do with traffic, or speeding offences any more than you do, believe me. But you can put youself outside harms way when dealing with stupid drivers (regardless of their profession) by hanging back when you see them doing dopey things. It doesn't always work, but it can't hurt; right?

I agree with some of what you're saying, and understand your viewpoint, but sadly, it appears he's in the wrong by the letter of the law. Which is the only thing that will count if he wants to take it further.

By putting my own past behaviour in the spotlight, hopefully he'll see he's not the only one who's been in this situation, but there are things you can do to avoid the frequency of the occurrences.

I was always in a hurry to "get past that idiot" but often in doing it, I was taking the same type of risk and being just as much of an idiot. I started riding a motorbike and developed a new appreciation of how little attention some people pay to such a dangerous task as driving a car.

Also, being "right" doesn't help if you end up broken, or worse...

I took a few big steps back and those "idiots" whilst still being there; don't pose me anywhere near as much danger now. If they want to run into people, they can ( and routinely do) but they don't often run into me.

It seems we're all on the same page with this incident, I hope it turns out ok, and the OP doesn't end up too jaded by the experience.

I also hope he's switched on enough to learn from it and hopefully avoid the "idiots" in future. Let 'em swerve without indicating under the side of a truck next time, maybe they'll pay a bit more attention in future.

Cheers, Dale.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Daleo

[RB25PWR]

friends were highway patrol, they think they "save lives" all their good for is directing traffic when the lights arent work. But thats my opinion.

you are doing the wrong thing. In the eyes of the law you are but in the end you are doing the right thing trying to avoid a drop kick driver.

Society has the problem of not being able to determine right from wrong. they have to follow a strict set of arbitrary laws such as Australia road laws and if you break them, you are a criminal

1) So when they do RBT, catch someone who is over the limit, who could potentially kill other innocent people... that' useless? Or catch a speeding driver who could also, potentially kill innocent people? I can understand you don't like them because they hide in spots and sometimes do things you probably consider dog, however they do, do some very good things.

2) He shouldn't have to 'avoid' the drop kick driver as he's keeping a safe distance right? I don't think that's what happened anyway, I think the driver appeared to pull slightly to the left, the OP thought it was OK to pass, then got ran into.

3) If you break a road law you're not a criminal, nowhere does it state this. Most road laws that you break can be deal with via a ticket, however yes, some matters you can be charged for and you will be a 'criminal'. eg: drink driving. ( I answered this question in quite the literal sense I know, however I just thought I'd say it anyway).

To the OP: I can only go off what you told me, which to be honest I don't think is the whole story. However if what you're saying is true, I suggest you be a little more patient with obvious dopey drivers. If I saw someone driving like an idiot the last thing I would want to do is over-take them when I'm unsure if they're pulling over or not. You're partially at fault there common sense wise anyway. You said it yourself, you observed them driving without indicating, etc.

Lesson learnt, keep clear of dopey drivers.

[krayzie32]

Thanks every one for the Information, feedback advice. There is a wealth of knowledge available and ill try to process it all one at a time...

(In case anyone is wondering im not here for sympathy and dont expect it...

Im here as this is the first time ive ever been personally involved in an accident, and wanted to know what i was supposed to do, learn my rights and also my obligations).

And thank you all again for that.

I suspected the Provisional License At Fault By Default Scare tactic was all a farce... And now i know it is.

I also contacted the LAC for information regarding the officers that attended the incident only for them to tell me that they had no knowledge of an accident and the only thing on record about the nights event was a random breath test and non comply with P plater condition ticket that had been issued and electronically submitted. Also only one officer was reported to have been at the scene. Bit funny to me...

Below are a few photos of the scene of the accident...

As can be seen, its a rather large road and as the other driver came suddenly stopped to the left hand side of the road, i proceeded to pass with caution indicating whilst breaking the line to pass i did not go any more than halfway accross the broken lines which i thought was ample room had she needed to exit her vehicle only for other driver to then turn right into my open passage as i was making the pass without any indication of what she intended to do.

This incident will be documented and submitted to insurance company and it will be for them to battle it out.

As for any monies costs etc, my very generous friend refuses to take any monies off me in the event that insurance company deems me at fault as its registered to his company and is more relieved that im fine and no one is hurt or injured...

Edited January 6, 2011 by krayzie32

[GTR-N1]

As can be seen, its a rather large road and as the other driver came suddenly stopped to the left hand side of the road, i proceeded to pass with caution indicating whilst breaking the line to pass i did not go any more than halfway accross the broken lines which i thought was ample room had she needed to exit her vehicle only for other driver to then turn right into my open passage as i was making the pass without any indication of what she intended to do.

If she actually came to a stop to the side of the road; and then pulled out from the kerb without indicating, there are two procedures involved here.

It;s the second procedure (ie of pulling out from the kerb) that places her at fault.

In reality, can you prove it?

...especially if she denies it?

[zebra]

If you needed to cross the centre line to get round her I dont think she pulledall the way over to the left to stop, you could just about drive two Prime movers side by side and still remain in the left lane.

So in seeing that I dare say the other driver has slowed and moved left to give more room to turn right (not sure why you would do that in an MX5) If she has turned into the side of you how do you know she didnt indicate...she may have done so whilst you were right along side.

Either way, you should have gotten photos right then and there...who's idea was it to move the cars from the acco scence? yours or her's? (my bet is it was her's) you should leave them where they are and get as many photos / witnesses as possible.

Because you moved the cars there is no evidence to support your claim.