Choosing Cold And Hot Side Housing For Gt3071R

[roberts]

I've bought bare Garrett GT3071R chra and I am now looking for appropriate compressor and turbine housing to complete it.

As my turbo manifold sits down quite low, I would like to gather most optimal and space saving setup.

There are few compressor and turbine housing choices and I would like to understand how each of them will affect performance of turbocharger.

I am looking right now for GT2871R (T04B style with 3" inlet and 2" outlet) compressor housing because it's smaller than any other GT30*. Are there some benefits using big GT3071 housing instead of GT2871?

Quite same dilemma is turbine housing. The longer will be the snail, the more trouble I am going into (oil drain, charge pipes). SO I found there is option to put T3 2.5" 4 Bolt Turbine Housing (here's link: http://himni-racing.com/index.php?ma...oducts_id=1687). Again.. I don't know it it would be good idea to put so small exhaust housing for 60mm turbine wheel?! I am looking for T3 flanged housings because my exhaust manifold flange is T3.

Hope for some advice!

[The Mafia]

I will reply with some questions.

1. Why, in the hell would you put a compressor cover, designed for a GT28 compressor, onto a GT30 compressor?

Would you buy an R34 GTR, and install RB20 GTS-T brakes because they save space and weigh less?

Would you buy an Farm irrigation pump, but install garden hose onto it because its easier to wind up?

Space saving, etc etc, is a load of crap, You need to install the right housings or your turbo will perform like crap. You'll wonder why it comes onto boost so quickly, but then stop making power WELL BEFORE its rated HP.

2. .... f**k...

I'm not even going to bother replying anymore to your post. I can't believe that you are actually considering all of this badly matched gear?

Anyway... Trying to make things easy is going to cost you a lot of $$$ in the short term.

I can guarantee, 2 Dyno runs with this gear, and you'll be regretting every decision you have made.

SAU - Why do people post these stupid theads??

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

is this to go onto an eg civic?

[roberts]

Well, do some research. Some of the larger housings shows poor results just of it's design. People are "upgrading" from gt2871r housings to gt30 ones and it's discussed as pointless. Then why not opposite?

Not even commenting your pointless comparisons..

I am takling about both wheel diameters vs housing options

Probably you wonder why would Garrett make so small turbine housing for 60mm wheel? Well IT DOE'S.

[discopotato03]

Easy Marf , there's bit more to this than meets the eye .

Before I start what engine and goals is this dryer aimed at ?

That said , the family of GT30 turbine based turbos is vast for an after market type unit and the variations differ only greatly . The smallest being the 84T cropped turbine with the smallest 48T 71.1mm compressor and the largest being the full turbine with the 56T GT40 compressor .

Garrett have used T04B and T04E compressor housings with this 71.1mm compressor , generally the GT2871R unit get the B housing and all the "GT3071Rs" get T04E housings . For the record T04B compressors were generally 70mm dia and T04E 76/76.2mm diameter - but not always .

You go into a grey area with non std configurations because it may be one Garrett hasn't tested so its characteristics can be unknown . You can get things like compressor surge and or lazy spool up and money spent developing can be good after bad because the result is never guaranteed .

I know its easy to say now but it may have been a good idea to wait for more results with the newer GTX versions because eventually I can't see them costing much if any more and they are Garrett's latest development for the aftermarket .

I think everyone got excited when those "real" GT3071R turbos/cartridges became available but they didn't seem to deliver the I'm much more responsive than a GT3076R result everyone thought they would .

The wheels in both sides are good in suitable applications but I think maybe they are not a good size/trim speed match for each other . I believe it comes down to Garrett's stubborn resistance to making the GT30 turbine in anything less than 84 trim and the only response from one who used to be on their inside was that a smaller trim would flow less and make less maximum power .

History proved that the competition TR30R , which I believed the real GT3071R was derived from , used a better turbine style and it was made in 73 or 76 trim . They put many a rally team on the podium and got Audi over the line first at Le Mans - several times I think .

Anyway HKS went a slightly different way when using these 71.1mm compressor wheels . The used the cropped version of the GT30 turbine in their inaptly named 2835 series or the best flowing GT28 turbine in the GTRS - which is a GT2871R 52T in HKS housings .

HKS prints on their tags "Power and Response" which reads to me I've been dialed in nicely and make torque where its needed . To do this you need to have some boost in the lower mid range and the system becomes self sustaining after that . They were looking for feel good performance in modified street cars and bigger badder performance for those who wanted that kind of thing . The did think "oh shoot this turbo won't flow gangbusters" but spinning up that compressor will spin the treads . In other words they were marketing a result and associating the result with their name .

Anyway you have options to use compact GT30 turbine housings made for your turbine but they are T2/25/28 (same) flanged non gated ones from HKS .

I don't think it would be the end of the world to use a T04B compressor housing but the outcome would be better IMO if it had a ported shroud type inlet boss which would need some customised machine work .

I vaguely remember Alex from Plazmaman using at times the 0.70 A/R T04B compressor housing and it may have been set up with a ported shroud but without the radial slot .

So anyway what engine in what bay to give us an idea of what sort of packaging constraints you have .

A .

[roberts]

Yeah, it's for 1.6 liter engine.

I am upgrading from GT2860rs with T3 .63 housing. Turbo is now maxed out @ 330hp on the wheels

So now I am looking for most compact housings due to low sitting manifold (it would cause drain problems and charge pipes sit's really low)

[The Mafia]

I've done all of this before - USed mis matched housing for a turbo when I was younger and more stupid, and believed what people at turbo shops said.

Anyway, I was bitterly disappointed.

AS for a 1.6L engine - You're going to find it hard to find something that makes big power without lag. You simply do not have the cubes to push a big turbo early.

Good luck though - Apologies for the harshness straight off the bat - There has been a lot of dickhead threads here lately.

[roberts]

Actually I posted on this forum because I hoped you (discopotato03) would get me into right direction. I did research on other discussions about gt30 family turbochargers and you seemed to know a lot.

It's going into my 1.6 liter single cam Honda which was on gt2860rs last season. But as turbo is maxed out of it's capability I am upgrading to gt3071r as it seemed best power/response for my goals.

I am aiming for about 400hp at the wheels with new turbo and car is daily driven as well as I am taking part in some dragrace events.

New chra which part number is 700177-5022 have following spec's:

Turbine

-Wheel: 60mm w/ 84 trim

Compressor

-Wheel: 71.1mm w/ 56 trim

So you say T04B housing which originally comes with GT2871r is smaller inside diameter (70mm)? I will try to find those HKS housings and paste links here to be sure with are suitable.

I know it's kind grey area and outcome could differ, but I think with great minds and thoughts we can reach reasonable outcome.

[roberts]

Mafia, you know sometimes it's better to combine turbochargers for exact engines and setups. I am not saying this is my case.. that's why I am gathering opinions to make it right first time.

gt3071r is not that big for 1.6 and as long as I can rev it high lag doesn't bother me much. I wished gt2860rs could give me more top end for the money spent.

[hypergear]

For a GT3071R CHRA your perferred housing combinations would be a .63 rear with .60 comp (T04E type, none surge sloted). If you are not using original Garrett turbine housing, then make sure you ask them to touch up the blow angle (end of the snail) in the generic turbine housings.

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

gt3071r is not that big for 1.6 and as long as I can rev it high lag doesn't bother me much.

it is if you enjoy real racing that has corners

[discopotato03]

Those GT2860RS turbos are good things but they won't make big power numbers because they run out of airflow at higher revs , its the power at revs that gives the high Hp numbers .

I'm nearly out of time and a steel train is waiting .

I would have thought seriously about the small or medium trim (48/52) GT2871R because it uses the exact same turbine wheel as a GT2860RS but offers more air pump capacity .

I havn't looked for a while but from memory the 2860RSs compressor was good for 36 pounds of air flow by mass where I think the 48T 2871R is good for about 39 pounds of air . The 52T version is about as much compressor as I reckon the GT28 turbine can handle and the 56T version goes a bit too far IMO .

Thanks to one of the fellas here I have a HKS GTRS and its a T3 flanged version for an RB20/25 . These probably wouldn't be a bad think for your application but A T28 flanged version would be easier to package and you have a choice of two turbine housing sizes . These HKS GTRSs also appear to have a T04B sized compressor housing with a unique style of port shrouding .

Anyhow give some thought to the GT2871Rs or the GTRS version because they are the next incremental step up after the GT2860RS .

Also your call but I prefer to use a turbine housing designed to suit the turbine wheel and a real T3 housing isn't the same as either GT28 or GT30 even if it is machined to suit the wheels profile .

A lot of ways have been tried to get GT30 turbines to be more responsive but I think its a bit hopeless because they were all made in big ie 84 trim size , actually one of the cropped types is even bigger at 90 trim .

There is a 60mm 73 and 76 trim version of that GT28 turbine but the Grinch's at Garrett won't give it to us in the aftermarket . If they hold together they could help solve a lot of the GT30 turbine family woes so why they don't use it escapes me . Maybe they don't want to be competitive in that size range .

Piss poor customer service if you ask me .

A .

[wolverine]

HKS GT-RS sounds like it is made for your application.

[roberts]

There's no way to think of other turbo options because this 3071chra is laying around about two meters from me now..

What I thought gt3071r is better comp/ turbine wheel balance than gt2871r turbos. That's why I made my decision when got good deal for this chra. I am wrong about this?

What I see, is that HKS 2835 uses the same compressor housing as Garrett p/n 756021-3

It's port shrouded A/R .60. I believe it's t04b style housing.. isn't it? Too bad I can not find someone to sell them seperately. What I think they are not available anymore.

Here is Garrett answer I found about question regarding swaping vice versa gt2871r / gt3071r housings ->

November 2007: Optional Turbo Housing A/R Effects

Question:

After searching the Internet extensively and look through your distributors I have been unable to find a compressor map for a GT2871R (743347-2) with the optional compressor housing (756021-2) to get an turbo configuration of 53.1 Ind Whl dia, 71.0mm Exd Whl dia, 56trim and an A/R of .50.

Would this configuration have the same effective compressor map as the GT3071R family line with the same configuration specifications (53.1, 71.0mm , 56 trim, A/R .50)?

- Mark D.

Answer:

The compressor wheel used in turbo 743347-2 and CHRA 700177-23 are the same. The difference obviously is the compressor housing and the A/R. The smaller A/R housings are designed to move the main efficiency island to a higher pressure ratio effectively making them perform better on applications running higher manifold pressure. The difference in choke flow is mostly due to the fact the GT3071R map was run to 140000 rpm where the GT2871R only 127000. The correct housing (A/R) depends on what pressure ratio your engine will be operating. Keep in mind 350whp and 400whp will be at two different pressures and end up on different points of the map. This is where map shape comes into play. The map on the internet for the GT3071R family represents the map for the compressor housings used in the 756021 kits.

(dirrect link to this)

So putting compressor housing from gt2871r to my gt3071r chra really would make turbo more responsive with same compressor map as gt28?! What I don't really understand is turbine wheel role in compressor map..

Seems like it will be really hard to find HKS2835 comp housing as well as t04b Garrett with A/R .60

And if we talk more about anti surge ported housings, why you don't suggest it "hypergear"??

[wolverine]

I personally would start from scratch and write off the cost (try to get a return credit) and get a T3 turbo with known turbine/compressor housing combos. The cost of buying and machining turbine and compressor housings from here will prove an expensive exercise with no real guarantee of a good result.

[roberts]

Thank you all for answers and inputs.

I've done much reading all over the web regarding gt3071r's and housings and see it's more complex than I thought.. blade shape and amount - all matters.

As I would sacrifice all "more compact" thing and refab mani and pipes to fit it, I want best performing turbo I can get using this chra.

Disco, would you share your knowledge more to help me choose from parts available. What would be your choice for compressor and turbine housing? I don't think I can find HKS comp housing for sale anywhere but besides there should be some alternatives. It is possible to get port shrouded housings from Garrett and to machine anti-surge ports if necessary.

What about GT30 based turbine housings for gt3071r people (Disco mostly) are talking about? Are there some available for externally gated setups?

Thank's for answer in advance..

[discopotato03]

AFAIK Garrett sell non gated T3 flanged turbine housings in 0.63 0.82 and 1.06 A/R sizes .

Compressor housings are going to be a bit harder because I think only HKS did port shrouded housings and that was for the GT2835 Pro S units , I don't think they are available seperatly .

Garretts T04E 0.60 A/R one is profile machined for 76.2mm GT37 compressor wheels and you can't machine them smaller . If you could find a T04E housing with a large plain boss like say the 0.50 A/R one on most GT3071R turbos you can modify that one .

My instincts tell me that its going to be hard to have a win because these GT30 turbines are big in trim size and going small in housing A/R size is possibly not the way to go without a port shrouded compressor housing .

This is where people like me believe that going small with the turbine housing can wake the turbine up at reasonable engine revs , dunno with 1.6L , but then the compressor wants to surge as it climbs into boost if its housing can't control it .

You may have got that cartridge cheap but it could be a false economy if you have to spend fortunes on it , and even then the result could be average .

You should probably speak to the mob at Hondatech.com and also Geoff Raicer from FullRace because he's no stranger to Hondas in the US .

I think its a big ask to want a lot of performance from even a well developed 1600cc engine and have it drive nicely around town . To make big power they have to rev and thats not what people generally do in their local residential area . I think a "big build" would give you a nothing nothing nothing WHAM type power graph and you'd have doubtfull control with a front wheel drive car when it all came together suddenly .

From my experience AWD is the best answer to turbo torque and having been there with an old Subaru that went from FrWD to AWD the difference is night and day . Its what inspired me to buy an Evolution Lancer which I really like because they come pretty well set up for a factory deliverd car wearing number plates . Less to have to do when much of the basis is there from the start .

Anyway its the same story with Evos , people want to throw big turbos and cams at them and wonder why they have no guts at sane revs and speed .

Its hard for some and I'm as guilty as everyone else , build what is most user friendly and usefull 90% of the time . People often go chasing a number because it sounds big but living with it can be impossible .

My friend Steve likes to say adequate , the performance is adequate to the task .

A .

Edited January 10, 2011 by discopotato03

[roberts]

Thank you for your suggestions Disco!

It seems it's really better to sell my new chra to someone else and look for gt2871r as it will give me better powerband with same top end.

Too bad this kind of knowledge comes a little too late, because I was really thinking it's a great turbo as I was looking for info all over the web and everyone was positive about it. Maybe the posts were old date..

Is there any car on earth gt3071r would do good job?

[The Mafia]

Is there any car on earth gt3071r would do good job?

Hey mate

I've tuned a couple of SR20s that have them, and no, didn't do that good of a job at all. For some reason, I felt a 2871 or a 3076 with small housings would have been better.

One thing though, I think, you might have more luck with the GTX series.

Zoom over to Nissan silvia forums, and sell your cartridge (Will go quick over there, as some tool will just want it so their car goes WHHHHOOOOSSSHHHH TUTUTUTUTUT duck whistle, cock blow, twirly, girls getting naked and diving in the car because they heard a BOV) anyway, and then look at the GTX series.

Disco, do you think a GTX series would be any good?

I'm thinking these possible combos (If they are possible)

1. GTX 3071 with 0.6 compressor and 0.63 rear housing (Maybe a 0.5 compressor cover?)

2. GTX 3076 with 0.5 Compressor cover and 0.63 rear

3. GTX 3582 with 0.7 compressor cover and 1.06 rear. (lol)

Surely a Honda Civic 1.6L would have decent engineering to bring a turbo on boost almost as quick as a SR20?

What does that VTEC do? Would that help? I'm always seeing that "VTEC kicked in yo" pic for lols... haha. Surely it would help the lag?

[Rolls]

I'm always seeing that "VTEC kicked in yo" pic for lols... haha. Surely it would help the lag?

Just shifts the cam profile at 4500rpm I think, so it wouldn't really help until you were already on boost. Maybe if you jammed it on all the time it would help, off boost would be worse but the extra overlap would help it spool faster.