"hacking" Electronics - Piracy Or Innovation

[EeLeYe]

It's become bullsh!t how I, the consumer, cannot do what I want with the product I buy. Apple makes us use the iPhone how they want to see fit and now Sony is doing the same thing...

The quesiton is, should the consumer have the freedom to use a product ONLY for it's intended purpose or should they be able to "innovate" and use it for other purposes as well?

The guy responsible for jailbreaking the iPhone, George Hotz, is now being taken to court by Sony for "breaking PS3's security measures wide open". His response was,

""This case is not about Sony Computer Entertainment America LLP attempting to protect its intellectual property or otherwise seek bona fide relief from the court," the attorney said in his response. "Rather, it's an attempt for Sony to send a message to any would-be individual that attempting to use any hardware it manufacturers in a way it does not deem appropriate will result in harsh legal consequences, irrespective of any legal basis or authority for such action."

You can read the story here http://au.gamespot.com/news/6286331.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=hot-stories&tag=hot-stories%3Bstory%3B3

And no, I don't work for gamespot - I just happen to get most of my info from their website.

And just for the record, I own both a PS3 and an iPhone.................................................................

[DivHunter]

The PS3's security was not hacked, it's a design flaw in the system which was only exposed after Sony removed funtions they had used to advertise the PS3 in the first place.

[EeLeYe]

The PS3's security was not hacked, it's a design flaw in the system which was only exposed after Sony removed funtions they had used to advertise the PS3 in the first place.

Are you referring to the ability to install thrid party OS that they took off after one of the firmware updates?? Coz that was such a BS move by Sony!!!

[DivHunter]

Yes

[warps]

The way I see it, if you hack a device and profit from it, you're breaking the law and the OEM of the device has every right to claim damages. If you hack the device and this causes a loss in income for the OEM, then again they have the right to claim damages. If you don't like that they make money from developing and selling their devices, then don't buy the product. If you can hack a device and use it differently to how it was intended, but use it purely for your own use, then they are hardly likely to get worked up about it, if they even find out.

When you buy and use their device, you basically agree to use it in the way they intend. If you go outside the intended use, then you forfeit OEM support, and if you in any way jeopardise their business / reputation etc through your use of the product, then they have every right to get pissed off and sue you.

Whether every court case against "hackers" is justified is probably another argument, and needs to be looked at on a case by case basis.

If I developed some new funky device and made millions from it, I'd be pretty peeved if some lazy arse decided to copy /exploit my idea when I'm the one who put all the hard work and risk into it in the first place. If you happen to come up with an add on that complements the device, then I guess this becomes a bit of a grey area. If your add on doesn't impact the business of the OEM in a negative manner, then this is probably OK.

Too many people these days chasing a quick buck off the back of someone else's hard work. I'm sorry but I see IP theft as the same thing as property theft. People who are too lazy to work for something, so figure it's ok to steal from someone who's done all the hard work themselves.

[mad082]

i think you have to look at it this way, most of the hacking (of consoles at least) is done in order to play games that have been burnt, etc. copying games is illegal so why shouldn't sony be able to sue people who are making this possible? if you created something and people were finding ways to do you out of money you'd be taking legal action against them too. only difference is that these are large companies so no-one feels sorry for them and almost feel as though they have a right to break the law.

[Miguelone]

i think you have to look at it this way, most of the hacking (of consoles at least) is done in order to play games that have been burnt, etc. copying games is illegal so why shouldn't sony be able to sue people who are making this possible? if you created something and people were finding ways to do you out of money you'd be taking legal action against them too. only difference is that these are large companies so no-one feels sorry for them and almost feel as though they have a right to break the law.

Look at it from the point of homebrew non for profit devs however and it's an entirely different story. Anyone who would be pirating games would probably not have purchased in the first place whilst the vast majority of consumers still will.

Furthermore any money Sony makes through licensing of 3rd party games will still be the same. Nothing changes for them really they're just pissy because they can't have it their way.

[mad082]

the simple fact is that sony is in the right and most of these "hackers" are in the wrong. sony is a business and businesses are there to make money.

and the hackers are just pissy that they can't do things that are illegal and get away with it. it's like people who complain about getting booked for speeding. if they didn't speed they wouldn't get booked.

[DivHunter]

You guys are assuming a lot of 'rights' that Sony simply does not have. One of which is removing features from an existing product forcibly. Basically you had to choose between keeping a feature you bought the PS3 with or losing the ability to play online, ever.

FYI the EULA has never been tested in court do you know why? Because they have no bases in the law and segments actually contradict Australian / US / British law. Besides the fact that they are marketed to minors, minors can buy them but cannot enter into a legally binding contract.

It's like Nissan coming out and saying they are going to remove launch control on all R35s. You can keep it but if you do you can never change the oil again. Or Miele coming out and disabling the drying on a washer dryer and when you kick up a stink they say 'fine, you can keep the dryer but we will weld the door shut'.

It just doesn't make sense.

Then there is the crying over the PS3 code signing, if someone does something like that for software on PC / Mac / Linux they are patted on the back for finding a vulnerability and exposing it when it's not repaired in a reasonable amount of time. Microsoft and ro Apple don't then take them (often security firms) to court. They might be irritated but it's essentially a fault in their product.

[.:: GimpS-R34 ::.]

Yeah that is understandable.. But if it's in the EULA that you agree not to do certain things and then do it.. Well maybe they should have the right to sue. However has anyone actually read all of the EULA?

[DivHunter]

Yeah that is understandable.. But if it's in the EULA that you agree not to do certain things and then do it.. Well maybe they should have the right to sue. However has anyone actually read all of the EULA?

That was kinda the point, the EULA is worthless. Sony will only go to court when they think they can get someone on IP, copyright, something that can be demonstrated as depriving them of business they would otherwise have in an illegal manner and more importantly not test the EULA in court.

The thing is a EULA that only stated what you are not legally allowed to do with a PS3 is about as usefull as a EULA on a hammer. TOS on an online service make sense though.

[.:: GimpS-R34 ::.]

Yeah, i don't really bother reading the EULA anyways as i think it mainly just covers sony's ass on the basis of don't bother crying to us as you agreed we arent responsible for anything.. And you gave us authority to do as we please.. ps. did you know you agreed to sign your house over to sony

Edited January 19, 2011 by .:: GimpS-R34 ::.

[Birds]

Complex sounding case, but the big picture here IMO: The PS3 or a subsequent product owned by Sony isn't being reproduced and sold (for less)...yet. That's all Sony would have a legal right to be pissy about. But that hasn't happened. It's all about the stealing and sale of intellectual property, and hacking is not that.

There is nothing to stop Porsche buying a BMW and dissecting it to find out how it works. They do this all the time. They even make their own versions of equipment, for R&D. When Porsche start putting BMW patented items in their cars and selling them, that's when BMW can kick up a fuss about it. When you make a patent you don't own the rights to someone creating or modifying that product, you own the rights to selling products with that design.

What Sony is pissy about, is all the game developers who will jump ship if they can't sell enough genuine copies. They are pissy that the cost to prosecute every end user of pirated games would outweigh the benefits of doing so. It's easier to make an example of one readily available person as a scare tactic. They know there's nothing they can do to stop the PS3 getting hacked, or every end user from doing so...and that this is all their own fault...but they'd rather play the blame game. Microsoft did their job properly, Sony didn't.

Unless Sony place a "this product remains the property of Sony etc." on every PS3 they sell, the user can do whatever they want with it, just like any other product in any industry. It's like forcing you to buy genuine accessories...you can't use fake NERF darts in a NERF gun, only genuine NERF darts etc. The only thing they could ever do is remove factory warranty on the product. The only people with a right to be concerned are the game developers, who only have a right to kick up a fuss once their game has actually been pirated.

I think that made sense.

[oweban]

The way I'm seeing is that when the Other OS feature was removed, they annoyed a LOT of users who were running *nix on it. If they wanted to play online, they'd have to update their firmware and lose that.

As per the analogy above: It's like Nissan coming over to my house (and everyone else with a Skyline) and saying, I'm removing your turbo and you're not ever allowed to put a turbo on your car again, nor tell anyone how they can do it. If you do, I'll sue the shit out of you.

If I buy a product, then the only thing I believe the company should be able to do is ADD features to it, not remove. So yes, while some people will use this for piracy, a LOT of people just want it for running *nix and homebrew (and this is where the PS3 devs of tomorrow come from! Can't learn the system if you can't play with it!).

EDIT:: Also as said by Birds: WP7 got jailbroken, so what did MS do? Called the guys up, invited them over to have a look at what was new in WP7, give a full tour and have chats about what can be done to the system, and gave them some shirts.

http://www.istartedsomething.com/20110118/chevronwp7-all-i-got-was-this-lousy-shirt/

[Mayuri Krab]

So is there a working mod chip out for the PS3 yet?

I only bought a PS2 back in the day (& I still play it from time to time since the new Fate Stay Night fight game is out) due to the mod chip & all the Jap games I could play on it.

Edited January 23, 2011 by Mayuri Krab

[DivHunter]

There is no mod required.

[Birds]

I had a Game Shark for Nintendo64 mofos. No clipping in Goldeneye ftw.

inb4 I hacked Tetris/Pacman/Pong

[oweban]

I hac- aww.

[FrangaR33]

Personally I am all for hacking the consoles for homebrew applications theres nothing wrong with using a piece of technology to its full potential after you've paid your hard earned cash for it. But theres the downside, the idiots at Sony for instance never thought someone would be smart enough to hack their console. Now I cant play Modern Warfare 1 or 2 without ending up on a server with hackers with aimbots, jumping 60ft into the air, unlimited ammo etc. The worst part is the f**kers ruined my kill death ratio that sat at 3.07 which I was quite proud of, some hacker thought it would be funny that everyone who played against him got a 1.7 K/D ratio and 9999 killstreak, and according to infinity ward theres nothing they can do.

/end rant

[hylian]

The "hack" in question enables unsigned code to be run, having said that there is no support for a backup manager (the thing you use to backup games). To get it you just download the hacked 3.55 firmware and install it like you would any other firmware update.

I haven't personally played with it but as far as I know there aren't any options for backing up or pirating games. Developers don't have anywhere else to jump ship to. The 360 was hacked years ago and it's as simple as flashing your drive and you can play burnt games. The Wii is even easier, you basically install a mod chip and just download games from a torrent site and run them off a portable hdd. Sony has done a good job at keeping the pirates away. The previous known hacks are buggy and difficult for even an intermediate user to understand. it's also a lot of f**king around. I have used the previous mod chips but there wasn't much point as the new games required a certain firmware anyway.

I understand that it's illegal and all that jazz but do they really have anything to worry about? 98% of Ps3 owners wouldn't even know there's a hack available for it, if they did they probably wouldn't know how to use it or what the point of it is. Sony will and probably already have released a new update patching the security hole.

Edited January 27, 2011 by hylian