Dissapointed With Sub

[Johny Bravo]

What i've got should be enough to keep me happy.

Ok i've made some progress, i fiddled with the band pass filter on the amp, got that sitting roughly on 80hz, and as someone said above its probably got a shit q so high freq will still leak through. So thats one plus.

Set the cut off on the head unit at 80Hz, so that should help make the q a little better, also discovered that i can can bump up the gain on the signal sent to the sub amp on the head unit, so thats been turned up and made a great difference.

Also found that i can set a hp filter for the speakers, so i set that at 80Hz also. The whole system is sounding better, but not perfect. Will road test it and fine tune it later.

Haven't moved the sub yet, it takes up less room and looks alot nicer where it is. Plus to move it i'll need to remove screws and that'll cause leaks. May move it as a last resort.

I'm gonna head down to the hardware store later on today hopefully and buy something to seal the inner edges of the box, and i'll see if they got some cheappy sound deadner aswell. Anything will be an improvement on what its got.

Now, can ya's help me with something. Not 100% sure if i've got the sub connected correctly, ie i might have +ve and -ve wrong. So, someone go jump in there car and put on The Prodigy's song Piranah (if you dont have it, get it) and through out the song there is a bass line in a few parts where the pitch of the bass goes from low to high then back to low (over about 7 punches). Should the sub progressively move out then in as it does this (ie as the pitch goes up the cone bulges out with it) or should it be the opposite, and sink in as the pitch goes up. Hopefully that makes sense.

Cheers

Kurt

[Johny Bravo]

Never mind, found a battery, all is well.

[BLITZ-26]

if you have connected them the wrong way round and its in a sealed box there is your problem the sub cant work, swap the wires around and see if that makes a difference it wont hurt it, sounds like to me that is the poblem you have

[Johny Bravo]

i didn't have them the right way, worked that out yesterday. sounding much better now. haha.

[GTRPowa]

Set your speakers high pass filter high than 80hz. I use 160Hz, if you have a setting up that way. Again, having a shallow Q @ 80Hz means bass still hits your speakers, limiting volume/adding stress to speakers.

I can almost bet if you turn your sub around it will seem another 30-40% louder.

Now although you may/may not have found a phasing problem, you can't work out phasing by looking at a sub moving under load. It moves at speeds usually above 20Hz, and under 100Hz, your eyes update around 24 times per second. So some updates you'll see the sub coming out, other moment's you'll see the sub inwards instead. You cannot work phasing out this way. The best bet (like any car sound installer) is to simply mark your cabling. Put the stripe cable as negative, or positive, whatever you'll remember. If you install car speakers and don't pay attention to proper phasing it'll sound shit and takes someone who knows what bad phasing sounds like to find it by ear. There are other way's to find bad phasing, but nothing beats the right wiring the first time.

[Johny Bravo]

i did all the wiring for my speakers, and i have them all connected consitstently as the two terminals were different. Will get out there with a battery and check there all in phase just to be sure though. I'm sure turning the sub around will make a difference, and i'll get around to it eventually. haha. cheers for the help. i'll have a look and see what settings i have for the hp and lp pass filters and get back to ya. So you recommend setting the bass amp and head unit sub seting at 80Hz (i can set it lower or higher on both) and the speakers amp and head unit speakers setting at 160Hz?

Cheers for the help and pacience.

[nicr4wks]

I would have said 160hz is a bit high, you're letting the sub do the midbass work and changing the sound stage. But play around and see what you prefer.

Depending on what your head unit is capable of, use either the crossover settings in the unit, or the crossover settings on the amp.

<80hz to the sub.

>80hz to the speakers.

As mentioned, face the sub to the rear of the boot and make sure your speakers are all wired up +/- correctly, this includes midbass and tweeters.

[Johny Bravo]

Alrighty, i can set the HPF on the head unit at these frequency's: 50, 63, 80, 100, 125 Hz.

And on the head unit again i can set the sub LPF at the same frequency's(50, 63, 80, 100, 125 Hz).

And i can set the LP filter on the sub amp from 40 to 160 Hz.

So what are peopls thoughts? Oh my headunit is a Pioneer DEH-5250SD.

Cheers

Also checked all the speakers and the sub, all have been wired correctly.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Johny Bravo

[nicr4wks]

Set the filters in the headunit as in my above post, if that still doesn't have the 'oomph' you want, turn the sub off and see what the bass coming from your speakers is like.

[SL33K]

Turn the LOUD feature "ON" on the headunit. it made a huge difference on mine. even though it says its only for low volume.

try PUT the SLA up so u have more volume, if its low...

i had a similar problem with a similar setup (deh-p4050). i played around with the settings and managed to get nice loud bass.

Also as said above, face the sub towards the back of the car. i tried all angles and found that it sounded best that way.

[GTRPowa]

Yes 160Hz can be a bit high, but I haven't needed to replace speakers in many years cause I keep that safety barrier.

If your speakers are emitting 80-160Hz signals that can keep up with a sub, you're gonna blow them. I personally don't notice a difference in the sound stage using a high HPF setting, and I visually don't see my speakers getting pounded around when I have HPF up high.

Keep in mind, even if your speakers CAN keep up with the sub, you have 4+ speakers emitting low frequency notes from varied distances. This will cause phase harmonics in the air which most often just cancels themselves out. You wouldn't think it'd be a big issue, but you'll find most mid-range 5.1 home amps have speaker distance settings, delays etc, to minimise it. Only high end car systems have the required settings to capitalise on phasing, and this is when it's actually a good idea to move onto 4+way setups, with midbass speakers, etc. Without proper phase control, all them speakers are wank. It's best to have just one bass source (one sub box) and let it do all the work. Bass is mostly undirectional.

But johnny, now you know the settings we're talking about, what they do, etc. You're getting close to what you say is a good sound, so from here just adjust settings to get the best sound you can. Rule of thumb, go for the best sound you can, using the highest HPF setting that sounds good. HPF isn't there to give you better quality - It's there to add safety to speakers. LPF for the most part isn't about protection, but sound quality. - I say that in general, sound critics with proper phasing control will capitalise on HPF/LPF/MPF etc, but with your setup, HPF is all about protection.

Turn HPF on and off while at a decent volume, it'll hardly make a difference. Not worth the midterm damage you'll see if you like lots of loud.

[SPINR31]

i know whats wrong.

the AMP is 180rmw which is 180rms divided by the 2 channels.

so if you bridge the subs in parralel and then into them amp, you will be delivering only 90rms to each sub, and the impedance will be 2 ohm (assuming you have SVC subs and have put all the +'s into the plus on channel 1, and all the -'s into - on channel 2

[BundyBear]

i know whats wrong.

the AMP is 180rmw which is 180rms divided by the 2 channels.

so if you bridge the subs in parralel and then into them amp, you will be delivering only 90rms to each sub, and the impedance will be 2 ohm (assuming you have SVC subs and have put all the +'s into the plus on channel 1, and all the -'s into - on channel 2

Sorry Dude but that just WRONG.

Firstly the Amp is rated at 180W @ 4 Ohm, given that Ohms Law is P=(ExE)/R and R is halved then the total power output would be double, retaining the original 180W per sub.

Therefore would deliver around 180W to EACH Sub, Wired in parallel as sujjested.

[Johny Bravo]

I may not have been clear.

The amp is rated 180rms bridged. I have it bridged to one 200rms sub. Its delivering 180w rms to the sub.

i have fiddled with the setting fixxed a few things and it is much better. just gotta turn it around and it should be all good.

Cheers for the replies fulla's.

[Carbon 34]

I may not have been clear.

The amp is rated 180rms bridged. I have it bridged to one 200rms sub. Its delivering 180w rms to the sub.

i have fiddled with the setting fixxed a few things and it is much better. just gotta turn it around and it should be all good.

Cheers for the replies fulla's.

that amp doesn't have enough power if its only 180rms bridged at 4 ohms , what amp model ### is it ? the make power would be around 360watts in a perfect world but it should still have some hit, a punch 45 old school was similar power and done right could pound decent running a whole car of speakers in mixed mono config.

too much power very rarely torches a sub, bad box design or underpowered clippiing kills them most of the time

pm me a few photos or post a few if you can so we can see up close what you have and how the layout is now. it would be a huge help for all of us.

just another question what music are you listening too, and what format or device , cd, radio,ipod, mp3, aac, etc? that could be the reason

I have some sugguestions but will wait for reply first.

not to point out some of the advice on here is not acurate and can destroy other speakers so becareful.

[Johny Bravo]

Amp is a Fusion Encounter Amp, EN-AM30020

Sub is a Fusion Encounter Sub, EN-SW120

I think all the product info is still online. The Sub is wired directly to the amp, and bridged correctly.

Been listening to prodigy btw. I'm pretty sure there's not much more i can do with the setup i have without spending money. and i'm playing it from cd, but i can play it on usb, aux, ipod and SD card if need be.

Edited February 24, 2011 by Johny Bravo

[Carbon 34]

if your listening to Prodigy thats one problem,,, kidding ,,, the fast beat and high distortion from the group's production processsing can cause even a good system to have drama to keep up with it. kinda like Nine Inch nails at full tilt.

does the bass ever sound good with any music types at lower/mid volumes?

if its a burned CD, compression is killing you, store bought ones are compressed enough already

the bass from the 12 with lower then reccomended power will prove fatal over time , fusion wants you to power that with twice the power you have on tap and I would agree.

that amp is fine for a pair of splits or mini sub at low volume but your asking too much from it to nuke the drive thru order girl with bass...lol . you could do a band pass box but that will only buy you a bit more, you could up the input to 8volts, using a pre amp like audiocontrol overdrive , or Epicenter which would buy you a bit more and can be used later on. but even fed with 8v in the output can only be so much.later today I'll punch in a basic SPL plot for your amp and sub and post them up for you to see what you can expect with going to a higher power on the sub. or better box.

also reccomend exact freq cutoff for best reults.

take a tapemeasure and measure the distance from your windscreen middle section to your rear deck area where the sub sound comes from and post it up. so I can plot the bass expansion available to the inside of your car. which is why some cars sound good pounding from afar but average up close. the bass wave hasn't expanded until outside the car.

Edited February 24, 2011 by sapphiregraphics

[Johny Bravo]

if your listening to Prodigy thats one problem,,, kidding ,,, the fast beat and high distortion from the group's production processsing can cause even a good system to have drama to keep up with it. kinda like Nine Inch nails at full tilt.

does the bass ever sound good with any music types at lower/mid volumes?

if its a burned CD, compression is killing you, store bought ones are compressed enough already

the bass from the 12 with lower then reccomended power will prove fatal over time , fusion wants you to power that with twice the power you have on tap and I would agree.

that amp is fine for a pair of splits or mini sub at low volume but your asking too much from it to nuke the drive thru order girl with bass...lol . you could do a band pass box but that will only buy you a bit more, you could up the input to 8volts, using a pre amp like audiocontrol overdrive , or Epicenter which would buy you a bit more and can be used later on. but even fed with 8v in the output can only be so much.later today I'll punch in a basic SPL plot for your amp and sub and post them up for you to see what you can expect with going to a higher power on the sub. or better box.

also reccomend exact freq cutoff for best reults.

take a tapemeasure and measure the distance from your windscreen middle section to your rear deck area where the sub sound comes from and post it up. so I can plot the bass expansion available to the inside of your car. which is why some cars sound good pounding from afar but average up close. the bass wave hasn't expanded until outside the car.

soooo. you know your audio. haha. bass is crap unless you crank the volume right up. i'll try playing some other kinds of music. i'll chuck on some daft punk or something else with slow bass to see how it goes. if you have had a look at the fusion amp range is there one there which you would recommend? i rarely listen to the stereo so i'm not too keen on spending big money. and yes i know, cheap and good don't go together, but im happy with cheap and nasty. I'll measure it tomorro (don't have my tape measure here, left it at the new rental) and get back to you. just to be clear you want me to measure from the centre of my windscreen to the back seats/where the sub box sits.

oh and thanks for all the help, when i get around to putting a good system in a car, i'll come see you.

cheers

[Carbon 34]

yes the distance from the front windshield to the area where the bass comes from, if its a R31 sedan the bass will be coming thru the seat back. then if you turned your box to face the rear of the car measure the distance from the cone to the rear of the car . and give me both numbers. my R31 sedan is not around to measure. the ex wiff took it...lol

if its not in a R31 then let me know what car it's in.

shoot me a photo of the box or measure the aprox dimensions/shape of your box. or if its just a generic box ? sealed or ported ?

for fusion gear, haven't worked a lot with it but I know Daryl in the fusion van does ok in sound comps with it. like most stuff it's made in asia . and yes NZ for fusion if I remember right.

this is the new version of the amp line you have. if you look at the specs its 900watts max mono, but only 350rms @ 4ohms which is how you run it. so it would give you some extra grunt.

fusion

if your not brand loyal you could do better???? , or you might find a similar older style model to match yours for cheap on ebay or even a local fusion dealer, they had a mono one with the same specs and green casing

send you the sound plot when you get the info , and you can see the difference you can have in layout of the box, and added power.

[Johny Bravo]

finally got around to it. from the centre of the widscreen to the cone (which is currently facing the front of the car, sitting right behind the rear seats) the distance is about 1850mm. and then from the cone to rear of the boot is about 1000mm. and the box is about 300mm deep. The sub box is approx 1 cubic foot. (just an aeropro box) and sealed. Not brand loyal, just got the fusion stuff on special. And i believe that amp you linked is 300rms not 350.

Oh and i've decided i'm more then happy to turf my box and amp and get better stuff. i don't think i'll need a better sub if i get a better amp to power it. should be enough to keep me happy.

Cheers for the help.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Johny Bravo