M35 Highflow Options?

[scotty nm35]

As far as what I've learnt at Stao's workshop doing my high flow that he used to use the Sierra turbine wheel when he first started, then found its not been able to flow enough while creeping too much heat due to its blade design working with factory turbine housing, cropping it makes it super laggy.

He's made a special turbine wheel that is touch bit larger then Garrett GT30s with much larger exducer. Works out to be an 86T GT30 wheel. That made heaps more power while not adding any much more lag. Going by his highflow thread you actually notice he's current high flows made heaps more power then what he originally started.

On the comp wheel side they have customized wheels with skinny hub and large blades so in theroy they would flow lot more then what standard Garrett comp wheel would based in the same size and trim.

I generally would not be comparing them to other high flows using Garrett along parts. The best way would be tell him what HP you want and let them do the thinking.

The issue remains, he has not done many of these housings and cant be sure what the power output will be with our engine/gearbox combo. Any large wheels wont work as the stall converter wont be matched and can you imagine a 300kw turbo coming on at 4500 revs only to stop just as its coming on strong at 6500 by the factory rev limit? What a waste.

I think you forget that aftermarket engine management has yet to catch up with our ecu's also.

[hypergear]

Actually I have done few of those turbos, and I'm fully aware of what those are like. They aren't same as Rb25det skylines, to high flow them we generally use 2871 52T equivalent or a 3071 52T equivalent profile. They produce very good midrange, and tops out around 250rwkws which is what you really want in a wagon with the stock auto.

I did use the sierra wheels but not in my preferred list, standard don't flow enough, once cropped it gives this big wack of power increase within very short RPM range after certain RPMs, the GT28 turbine wheel and our customized GT30 turbine wheel are lot smoother on road.

I'm not a big fan of BB CHRAs even thou we can build them, definitely result none difference working with stock housings. The theory only support them assume they work in fully clean oil, but did not consider much with oil drag, as well as engine oil contamination, I personally think its hard to not have any engine fillings in the oil on a 15 years old every day driven vehicle. on other hand small amount of metal particles can only leave a small scratch on the bush on sleeve setup which gets filled by compressed oil results no difference in turbo performance.

just my 2C

[scotty nm35]

250rwkw? You have a dyno result for us Stao? Post it up...

I agree though, with the stock stall converter you would want smaller size wheels or it will just take too long to get it spinning and will feel very sluggish response wise.

Nothing wrong with the sierra wheels in mine, they just seem inefficient above 18 psi which is why I suggested the garrett 3071 chra, not just a similar profile. I understand though that you don't want to use these?

Jetwreck's results show the housings aren't very restrictive at all. I compared the nozzle diameter with an op7 and although ours is hard to measure, it seems bigger due to the thinner housing wall. If you were willing to fit the garret chra I might be interested in upgrading...

[hypergear]

At moment all my test results came from Rb25det, But by experiences doing high flows for M35 customers I'm aware how different wheels would affect its driving ability.

I found Garrett GT30 turbine wheel is abit restrictive for stock housing. I haven't seen one managed to flow more then 260rwkws internal gate on stock housing. The once that you've seen making 270rwkws on Rb25dets is a cropped version of sierra wheel. I sure the sierra turbined high flow you've got will out perform the GT3071 in peek power.

In regarding to the customized turbine wheel that I've drawn and made early 2010 have proven making more power with better response compare to the old sierra setup.

Assume if a turbo made N power on a RB25det is there a formula that we can calculate of what it would make on a VQ25det?

[scotty nm35]

I don't assume anything, especially as its a different housing you are basing your guess off. The best I have witnessed was one of only 3 actual tuned results I have seen, a garrett 3071 core, machined into our stock housing. It made nearly 270 at all wheels on 15-16 psi with the stock auto box.(BP98) What would this equate to in RB world?

Any highflow will ruin the drive-ability of the M35, its not until its tuned the real worth is seen and as none of your customers have done that, you don't have any results so are guessing right? I had only heard good things about your business so I wont have a go but please stop quoting numbers unless you have the paper to back them up.

Im not at all worried, I may just have a crack at machining my spare housings myself on my lathe, seeing as I cant find anyone local that wants to do it at a reasonable price. I can get a complete gt3071 for $1300 with both housings so I guess the CHRA is much cheaper than that right?

[hypergear]

Your result turned out to be similar as the Cropped Sierra high flow based on a OP6 Rb25det:

I'm sure it works great. But I won't call that responsive for its power if it is on a RB25det.

Any way, we only use 2x profiles for the VQ25det high flowing. Based on Rb25det

ATR43SS-2 profile in OP6:

http://www.digi-hardware.com/images/dynosheets/atr43/atr43ss2250rwkw.jpg

and ATR43G1 profile in OP6:

http://www.digi-hardware.com/images/dynosheets/atr43/253rwkwsop6highflow.JPG

ATR43SS-2 profile is higher rated, as its got about the same response as the stock turbo while providing more torque and power on factory setup.

[scotty nm35]

Stao, your links are broken.

The results I posted are from Craig's GT3071, you understand this is running an auto right? The run has to start at above 80 kph or the auto will kick down so how can you tell the response is bad? 180kph equates to about 6500 revs so its making 160awkw by 4100 or there abouts, much better than the above graph...

Did you notice the flat torque curve and linear power? Still climbing too, and all at 16 psi. I want to know what it does at 22psi on ethanol.

[Jetwreck]

What's going on here???...reading from above your talking 2wd manual rb25 bs 4wd auto vq25....how do you figure the test is even close to equal!

Show me your data on a vq25det turbo!... Not interested in rb stuff they have been around for 30 years now....and I have personally been stuffing around with rb's for 20!

I understand

[hypergear]

based on RWKWs vs RPM I only said its not responsive if that was on a RB25det, not auto VQ25det. my apologies I must've miss read as I thought that was from a Sierra high flow.

I've fixed the link on the VQ25det high flow profiles based on Rb25det. Which is what we've been high flow VQ25det turbos with. I will post results when I get them sent in from our customers.

[scotty nm35]

Both of those ramp on very nicely but what's with the boost curve? Is that with the low pressure actuator?

They aren't a valid option for me because I already have a turbo similar in size with bugger all lag. I have since upgraded the actuator to hold 19psi. Im just waiting for a new torque converter with upgraded lockup clutch to handle the 24psi I unsuccessfully tried running through the box on the last tune.

With a 3071 I could possibly ramp it up over 350awkw at my guesstimate. Im confident the engine will take it but the gearbox may not.

This is the Sierra graph on eflex. Held about 17psi at redline at the time.

[hypergear]

The boost curve is under the power curve on both of those. and yes I was getting 18psi pre 2500RPMs with the SS-2 profile. They were some of the early runs I've done all running 14psi actuator with pump 98 fuel. I've later re-dawn the actuator with wastegate setup, changing the traditional single spring to a twin spring setup, current actuator runs minimum of 18psi with no boost controller, that made lot of differences.

This is one of my custom made turbine wheel on OP6:

http://www.digi-hardware.com/images/dynosheets/atr43/op6highflow321rwkw.jpg

Its a duel ceramic ball bearing high flow setup based on a OP6 turbine housing internal gate at 24psi with pump 98, 345rwkws on 28psi. Should increase mid range by 15% and push almost 400rwkws on E85.

Traditional GT30 turbine will not be able to flow that, sierra wheel might if cropped out heaps which will not have the same mid range. I'll be pretty keen to trail few of the larger profiles on M35 down the track, hopefully be making the same sort of power.

[scotty nm35]

Quite a bit less torque, its a pity I cant get on Trent's dyno for a comparison. Perhaps the VQ just thumps the RB in that regard.

[wolverine]

If you can get 350rwkw out of a GT3071 core then I need to get my cars on that dyno asap.

They are a 450hp cartridge assuming you use the 56 trim comp.

[Jetwreck]

If you can get 350rwkw out of a GT3071 core then I need to get my cars on that dyno asap.

They are a 450hp cartridge assuming you use the 56 trim comp.

And I am presuming you know we are not talking about RB's! ...only playing!

Cannot figure wether your saying the Dyno is FOS or my tune is FOS!....if it's the dyno take your car down to Vic and run it up. Every dyno is out...either up or down...but I have never seen figures that are more than 10-15KW's different on the same car!....do you think I have never sat on a Dyno before!

E85, GT30/71 core with Garret BB set, VQ25det, 24-25PSI, MT 2WD highly likely to hit 350RWKW's!....considering Scott is running a smaller turbo and has hit 300AWKW's on 17-18PSI and would push more but his GB is not handling it I am thinking it's a pretty good indication!

Also consider this, I am already doing 268AWKW's(Scott ran approx 245AWKW's on BP98, 17-18psi same setup) on BP98, 15PSI, Auto 4WD....the only reason we stopped was the GB!

Anyway rant finished.....does 268AWKW's on BP98 not support your 450hp cartridge theory anyway?

P.S. My figures on my turbo tell me it's good for 500HP btw!

Edited February 24, 2011 by Jetwreck

[scotty nm35]

If you can get 350rwkw out of a GT3071 core then I need to get my cars on that dyno asap.

They are a 450hp cartridge assuming you use the 56 trim comp.

Speak to Cihan (Etuner) he can get you on his dyno, its in Campbelfield, north of Melbourne.

Since when did a suggested power rating mean anything to a modifier anyway? Ethanol buddy, thats the secret... A man has to have a goal doesn't he?

The 3071 may happen sooner rather than later, I just need to replace the torque converter before I can wind up the wick. Anyone got a spare one I can get built?

[wolverine]

I might be worth making the note that you are not talking pump fuel in case anyone searching thinks 350rwkw is achievable with that cartridge.

I still feel this would be a high number for a GT3071 using a full size GT30 front and rear housings on E85 but ultimately a dyno is a tuning tool and its best use is measuring before and afters.

I still wonder where the improvement comes from your current power level with any turbo change without making the car less drivable day to day.

[scotty nm35]

My Eflex is at the pump, and its written in my sig...

I have a 3000 stall, my turbo makes 20psi by then. I find it way too punchy in the midrange and would rather 8 psi or so ramping up from there.

[wolverine]

A shame E85 isn't available everywhere so it still remains a more exotic fuel.

I hear you when it comes to too much boost too early. If you could fit a larger framed turbine in there you can get a nicer more linear delivery. It is one of the reasons, apart from curiosity, why I switched the GT-RS for the 2835ProS (53mm GT28 turbine vs 56mm GT30 based turbine and 52trim 71mm comp vs 56 trim comp). They are more similar on a dyno chart than a bit like what HKS shows on their promo blurb but worlds apart to drive.

[Jetwreck]

A shame E85 isn't available everywhere so it still remains a more exotic fuel.

I hear you when it comes to too much boost too early. If you could fit a larger framed turbine in there you can get a nicer more linear delivery. It is one of the reasons, apart from curiosity, why I switched the GT-RS for the 2835ProS (53mm GT28 turbine vs 56mm GT30 based turbine and 52trim 71mm comp vs 56 trim comp). They are more similar on a dyno chart than a bit like what HKS shows on their promo blurb but worlds apart to drive.

but for how long!

watch this space....

http://www.ethanolan...ethanol/locator

Be great to have a selection of aftermarket turbo's we could fit without major modifications .....atm though or at least until a decent set of headers are made and a new location for the turbo found we will have to deal with the standard turbo housings.

Not to mention we still have to sort out the GB and stall convertor!.....and my other preference of going to at least 3:6 diff ratio's!

Edited February 24, 2011 by Jetwreck

[wolverine]

but for how long!

watch this space....

http://www.ethanolan...ethanol/locator

I say for a long time. That was 10 places in NSW in total vs 10 servos on the way home for me.

I am dubious that there will be a mass roll out unless more cars are produced to run on the fuel and the industry genuinely gears up to produce it, I think it will remain a niche market. The only servo that I go anywhere near is in Richmond but I would need to consider carefully where I was driving to use it if I intended relying on it.