R34 Gtr Build

[UWISSH!]

What I gathered from what mike is trying to ask is, will spending the amount on the manifold only be ever so slightly better than buying off the shelf or a lesser expensive custom job?

As in will your desired boost/ rpm only be say 2-300 rpm better than another design?

If this was an all out time attack car yeh I can see how you would justify this expense as every bit helps in time attack,

But if only an occasional weekend warrior that may see just some random skyline meets through out the year I don't see why it would matter so much.

I'm not knocking what you are doing as it's interesting but I'm just curious about the whole reason being so picky if it's not an out n out race car

[GTRNUR]

Granted that HKS and Trust make some very good manifolds, they and virtually every manifold I've ever seen follows the same approach regarding boost control. That being they all vent exhaust gas pressure from the collector. The angle that the gasses vent from the collector varies from manifold to manifold.

Books ive read on the subject will tell you that gas flow at the collector should ideally split down the middle to flow gas while maintaining maximum velocity at the collector to either the turbine or to the wastegate port. And while this works it still isn't optimal as when the wastegate is closed there is turbulance generated around where flow splits off to the wastegate port. So they work well once the gate is open, but not ideally until then.

Ive also seen a system that used a gate attached to only one of the primary header pipes. This works well in not causing gas flow turbulance at the collector, but can have boost control issues at the top end of the RPM range. Ideally you would have a gate on each primary header pipe.

The approach I see being done here is very different to all conventional thinking. The collector is designed as a typical precision merged collector. Each wastegate port in the collector then extracts gas flow at the collector from the flow stream for each primary pipe. At this point in the collector is also where gas pressure and flow are at their peak. These two things are important for 2 reasons. Peak flow means the least chance of gas turbulance before the turbine, and peak pressure meaning highest flow to the gate ports when needed.

While the gate ports in the collector are at 90 degrees to the gas flow, they scavenge equally from each gas stream from each primary. Next a venturi effect is used to create a low pressure from the dump pipe, through the open gate to the gate ports in the collector. This venturi effect will increase with engine speed and gas flow. So the more power the engine makes the more effective the boost control will be.

So at least thats how I think it works! Now I know there isn't an off the shelf manifold anywhere in the world that will do that. As for the results, we will see soon enough.

[BOBBYr34]

i think i get where dahandfull is coming from in regard to $ vs results

if manifold a is $1000 and manifold b is $10000, is manifold b 10 times better than manifold a? if its not, how do you justify the difference.

i appriciate the engineering and unique angle you are going with this build but at the end of the day what is your desired goal and what if it has or could be achieved using the same general parts available to the public off the shelf?

what do you have to achieve to make this build successful?

cheers adam

Adam,

So tell me is a Ebay $300 manifold better then a HKS? And your answer would be no, so there for John's Manifold will be better then anything on the market as this manifold design is for quick spool maintain high boost flow air with minimal disturbance.

Have you ever asked how much it costs to make a manifold for F1 or even a rally car i am sure they would never disclose it , well i have and John's ability is at F1 and rally spec.

When i decided to build this motor i wanted as many bolt on parts as possible, The intake manifold John wanted to make one as he found the factory intake manifold has a mistake in the last runner flows 16% more air then the others. He at the end settled with the Nismo intake manifold as he wanted me to move the brake and clutch booster and i told him i do not want to go to that extent as this motor was going in my 2002 R34 V-spec II NUR, but later things changed. He tested the Nismo manifold and said this was ok to use. Even the cooler he wanted to make i bought the ARC cooler and showed him and he loved it said you have saved your self some money as i would of charged alot more.

You have to understand John used to make Scientific Equipement for me to a ASTM standard he never let me down.

This build is something people can copy and understand what the RB26 really needs. He wants it so ti responds like a WRX sti with top end. Have it tuned with leaner mixtures and usable and drivable power for street drag and circuit.

We are just trying to pick up efficiency from everywhere to achieve the most efficent build.

[BOBBYr34]

What I gathered from what mike is trying to ask is, will spending the amount on the manifold only be ever so slightly better than buying off the shelf or a lesser expensive custom job?

As in will your desired boost/ rpm only be say 2-300 rpm better than another design?

If this was an all out time attack car yeh I can see how you would justify this expense as every bit helps in time attack,

But if only an occasional weekend warrior that may see just some random skyline meets through out the year I don't see why it would matter so much.

I'm not knocking what you are doing as it's interesting but I'm just curious about the whole reason being so picky if it's not an out n out race car

This will be driven everyday ,drags and will race it where i can. The design will and certianly decrease turbo lag by more then you have stated as i have said no turbo lag. John is still trying to work out how to not overboost at low rpm, he as said a plunger system will help i wont go to much into as i dont know much myself, he said Indy cars use it with a throttle body infront of the turbo and another one down stream in the plenum.

[BOBBYr34]

Granted that HKS and Trust make some very good manifolds, they and virtually every manifold I've ever seen follows the same approach regarding boost control. That being they all vent exhaust gas pressure from the collector. The angle that the gasses vent from the collector varies from manifold to manifold.

Books ive read on the subject will tell you that gas flow at the collector should ideally split down the middle to flow gas while maintaining maximum velocity at the collector to either the turbine or to the wastegate port. And while this works it still isn't optimal as when the wastegate is closed there is turbulance generated around where flow splits off to the wastegate port. So they work well once the gate is open, but not ideally until then.

Ive also seen a system that used a gate attached to only one of the primary header pipes. This works well in not causing gas flow turbulance at the collector, but can have boost control issues at the top end of the RPM range. Ideally you would have a gate on each primary header pipe.

The approach I see being done here is very different to all conventional thinking. The collector is designed as a typical precision merged collector. Each wastegate port in the collector then extracts gas flow at the collector from the flow stream for each primary pipe. At this point in the collector is also where gas pressure and flow are at their peak. These two things are important for 2 reasons. Peak flow means the least chance of gas turbulance before the turbine, and peak pressure meaning highest flow to the gate ports when needed.

While the gate ports in the collector are at 90 degrees to the gas flow, they scavenge equally from each gas stream from each primary. Next a venturi effect is used to create a low pressure from the dump pipe, through the open gate to the gate ports in the collector. This venturi effect will increase with engine speed and gas flow. So the more power the engine makes the more effective the boost control will be.

So at least thats how I think it works! Now I know there isn't an off the shelf manifold anywhere in the world that will do that. As for the results, we will see soon enough.

Ian,

I see you have studied the manifold so well I am impressed . I just wanted to add one thing that John said, when the air flows through the pipes the maximum velocity is at the center of the pipe diameter and this is what you are ment to use to turn the turbine. The outer side of the pipe he said is the wetted flow or dead flow that we can waste it off.

Once you achieve your desired boost waste it off, the manifold will waste alot more then anyother.

Also if you would like some good reading material I have the SAE Spark ignition Engine Technology Collection - 6000 pages Can run a copy for you.

[SimonR32]

You seem to have blind faith in johns ability to engineer the car, it's almost religious...

You keep comparing to f1, rally and indy car racing with their research and development, with the costs and success that come from it.

But realistically you are carrying out research and manufacture. You come up with a idea, think it's the best, tell everyone it's the best without even testing it.

The reason why the motorsport teams get things so right is because they get so many things wrong and then head back to the drawing board, I just hope for your sake you spent all this money on something that works first time!

Edited April 27, 2011 by SimonR32

[UWISSH!]

Have to agree with simonr32,

Does John have a money back policy?

[r33_racer]

This is his build thread, he can say and do whatever he wants. If you dont like what he is saying or showing in regards to this build then dont read it and/or start arguments.

I think the build is great and it seems this john fella knows what he is doing. The engineering certainly makes sense and the quality is right up there with the best.

[FineLine]

Agreed Mike. The proof of the pudding will be the end results.

Until then we can only watch and wonder.

[bigmikespec]

I think this is a great build and it is upsetting a few people for the fact that it is very different and taking an engineering approach to the build not just a list of brand parts that "has worked before" for so many people.

Every improvement is approached with a proven engineering theory behind it and it is applaudible that Bobby is going to all this effort for us to see and is being transparent with the whole build. Instead of criticising we should all be thanking and encouraging him.

Now where are those photos of the pistons Bobby

[BOBBYr34]

You seem to have blind faith in johns ability to engineer the car, it's almost religious...

You keep comparing to f1, rally and indy car racing with their research and development, with the costs and success that come from it.

But realistically you are carrying out research and manufacture. You come up with a idea, think it's the best, tell everyone it's the best without even testing it.

The reason why the motorsport teams get things so right is because they get so many things wrong and then head back to the drawing board, I just hope for your sake you spent all this money on something that works first time!

I have alot of faith in John as this is not his first build like some.

I think i have already told you this John is from the motorsport industry

[BOBBYr34]

This is his build thread, he can say and do whatever he wants. If you dont like what he is saying or showing in regards to this build then dont read it and/or start arguments.

I think the build is great and it seems this john fella knows what he is doing. The engineering certainly makes sense and the quality is right up there with the best.

Thank you for your comments

[BOBBYr34]

I think this is a great build and it is upsetting a few people for the fact that it is very different and taking an engineering approach to the build not just a list of brand parts that "has worked before" for so many people.

Every improvement is approached with a proven engineering theory behind it and it is applaudible that Bobby is going to all this effort for us to see and is being transparent with the whole build. Instead of criticising we should all be thanking and encouraging him.

Now where are those photos of the pistons Bobby

Thank you Michael i will have the piston in my hand this afternoon and i will take some pics of it and post it

[BOBBYr34]

You know i could of just posted some pics of my car and not say anything or give no details about the build and keep it all a BIG secret.

Tell me how many people on this forum list there builds in detail and have open questions about the build. I can list many on here, id like to see if someone has approached them to ask what they have done and what combination they are running, and see what they have to say. We all know they would not give away any secrets.

What I am trying to do is not have the best however build the best so i can share it, I dont see anything wrong with that. If you agree to what i am doing excellent if not its all good.

I will continue listing as much as I know with any new developments.

[drag-on silvia]

Adam,

So tell me is a Ebay $300 manifold better then a HKS? And your answer would be no, so there for John's Manifold will be better then anything on the market as this manifold design is for quick spool maintain high boost flow air with minimal disturbance.

Have you ever asked how much it costs to make a manifold for F1 or even a rally car i am sure they would never disclose it , well i have and John's ability is at F1 and rally spec.

When i decided to build this motor i wanted as many bolt on parts as possible, The intake manifold John wanted to make one as he found the factory intake manifold has a mistake in the last runner flows 16% more air then the others. He at the end settled with the Nismo intake manifold as he wanted me to move the brake and clutch booster and i told him i do not want to go to that extent as this motor was going in my 2002 R34 V-spec II NUR, but later things changed. He tested the Nismo manifold and said this was ok to use. Even the cooler he wanted to make i bought the ARC cooler and showed him and he loved it said you have saved your self some money as i would of charged alot more.

You have to understand John used to make Scientific Equipement for me to a ASTM standard he never let me down.

This build is something people can copy and understand what the RB26 really needs. He wants it so ti responds like a WRX sti with top end. Have it tuned with leaner mixtures and usable and drivable power for street drag and circuit.

We are just trying to pick up efficiency from everywhere to achieve the most efficent build.

all very fair comments, and i wouldnt disagree at all. i definately respect the process that you are going through with this build. i think everybody who builds a car to some extent has some element of disgression when it comes to parts selection and i think you are taking it to that next level to achieve a desired result.

[Nee-san]

Ian,

I see you have studied the manifold so well I am impressed . I just wanted to add one thing that John said, when the air flows through the pipes the maximum velocity is at the center of the pipe diameter and this is what you are meant to use to turn the turbine. The outer side of the pipe he said is the wetted flow or dead flow that we can waste it off.

Once you achieve your desired boost waste it off, the manifold will waste alot more then anyother.

Also if you would like some good reading material I have the SAE Spark ignition Engine Technology Collection - 6000 pages Can run a copy for you.

As any fluid moves along a boundary it develops a shear stress that brings the velocity of the fluid in the "boundary layer" or the thickness between the inner diameter of the tubing and the actual flow speed of the fluid to zero.

This means that as John says the surrounding boundary layer of fluid in the conduit, in this case the primary manifold will be "wasted or dead", so he is 100% correct in this regard, so I don't see what peoples problem is with the manifold in this regard >?

It's really good to see people actually developing solutions with a true engineering approach, it's in this sort of development that creates the invisible gap between what you can buy off the shelf and what you can see performing in racing series.

Also on the IHI RX6,

It's indeed true that alot of the development accrued on the F1 program went into the RX series turbo's the fact is that they are not actually the same turbocharger and although they were a fantastic turbocharger there are probably alot higher performing turbochargers available.

Also, KKK is the brand, not the type of turbocharger ?

Found on alot of early Big japanese GT-R's F1 engines and even one of the Lancia stratos models blowing on a Ferrari engine

Anywho, keep us posted Bobby

[PM-R33]

You know i could of just posted some pics of my car and not say anything or give no details about the build and keep it all a BIG secret.

Tell me how many people on this forum list there builds in detail and have open questions about the build. I can list many on here, id like to see if someone has approached them to ask what they have done and what combination they are running, and see what they have to say. We all know they would not give away any secrets.

What I am trying to do is not have the best however build the best so i can share it, I dont see anything wrong with that. If you agree to what i am doing excellent if not its all good.

I will continue listing as much as I know with any new developments.

Mate what you are doing is excellent and I think the majority of us respect it very much. Definetely keep the information coming. Regardless of the results what you are doing is something very special due to pushing the envelope.

[BOBBYr34]

Below are this Pic of the Piston design, with ceramic coating.

Below is a pic of the head

Below is the oil drain to the sump, this is the lowest point in the head correct way to do it . Not like how others put it at the back of the head!!!

[bigmikespec]

Are you having a scavenge there for dry sump?

[BOBBYr34]

Are you having a scavenge there for dry sump?

The head drain will connect to the oil drain for the turbo and then to the scavenge