The Wakefield "incident"

[Pezhead]

Naw mate, you'll see it in due time. As I said, this project has turned into an epic episode. Can't tell the story before it's done.

[Thunder]

This thread has too much colour to agree with it all, but I'd like to highlight something:

Pez started this thread off, not naming companies and individuals (probably for several reasons) - and a few 'professional internet detectives' have taken it upon themselves to dig up info/photos/company names and now everyone's throwing shit at them.

I mean, if I paid SureFlo for an exhaust to be mailed and they never mailed it, I CAN'T come on here naming (and making defamatory remarks about) their company even though they black and white stole from me with intention.

But in this FAR LESS sinister case, we have a bunch of kids (prove by example you are not) unrelated to the incident going around sending emails to companies and trying to make a big deal of this, naming people on the forum here, etc. Most of the crap wouldn't have happened if this forum wasn't used as a communication platform for everyone to find out who's involved. You can't deny it, just read from page 1 and watch it develop.

This thread was about helping Pez out with getting a car on the road. It was NOT about pinpointing blame, naming companies and invidivuals, creating lynch mobs, and sending companies emails. Now it's escalated from a call for help to an argument involving the company owner.

It's unfortunate what happened, whether it was before or after the fact people can't hold themselves back and just let the thread follow the course the OP designed it to have.

--

This thread is another showcase of the childish behaviour of certain members. This forum is going to shit. Admins should lock this thread and remove all the trash.

Sorry to all people SPECIFICALLY involved in the addicent.

+1

There is no changing what happened to Eric.

It was disastrous, but it was an accident, and unintentional.

My Company and I had nothing to do with this.

Waivers were signed so each person accepts the responsibility for whatever happens on the track to themselves, or their vehicle, and there are reasons for this.

If I had accepted liability, this may have then led to personal injury claims, etc - and I wasn't even at the track, or entered in the event.

I also cannot help what happened between the drivers, as I was not there, nor had I met either of them.

A lot of what happened on the day, I am only finding out by what I read in this thread, so if I hadn't thanked people, etc - it is because I did not know what happened.

A lot of the derogatory comments were from people other than Eric, and some were not at the track, and they have dragged my company into this event unfairly.

Some of my comments were probably poorly written, and misunderstood, which also did not help things.

The fact is, Eric's car was hit by the car owned by me, and after the fact, nothing can change this.

I offered in this thread, and also behind the scenes, to hold a Charity Dyno Day and BBQ at my workshop for Eric.

The accident saddens me, and the news of Eric losing his wifes car altogether, is even sadder news.

If the dyno day goes ahead, I hope that the Skyline Forum members will support the cause and help Eric.

I am willing to help out, but I can't accept liability - there is a big difference.

Whether Eric's car is written off and parted out, or repaired, he is still out of pocket and needs help.

Cheers

Greg

what goes on in the forum stays in the forum!

B.S. What goes on in the forum, laps the world for eternity.

It can destroy the good name of a business or person, whether fairly, or unfairly, and can leave Forum Owners open to be sued for defamation and damages.

What happens at the track should stay at the track!

This tragedy was between Eric & Richard and should have been left that way.

Everyone wanting to help, could have posted or pledged their help, without dragging other parties into this, and pointing the finger.

The outcome would have been a lot better for all parties concerned, and this thread would have been a lot better for it.

If this had remained a "Help Eric" thread, I believe it would have achieved far more than it has done to date.

I am posting this to help get it moving again, and in the right direction - helping Eric !!!

Cheers

Greg

[gregor]

B.S. What goes on in the forum, laps the world for eternity.

It can destroy the good name of a business or person, whether fairly, or unfairly, and can leave Forum Owners open to be sued for defamation and damages.

If anyone needs proof of how far a forum war can go google powerchip..

Edited March 14, 2011 by gregor

[Thunder]

If you look at these video clips, the Commodore is one of our customers.

The Mazda took him out, and the Torana also became involved, and I believe it was under yellow flag conditions.

Back at the pits the Mazda driver told the Commodore driver that he moved across and hit the Mazda, until he showed him the video footage, and then he said sorry and that was it.

Each had to pay for their own repairs, and the Mazda had a bit of black paint on his bumper and finished the race.

The Commodore has around $15000 damage and the Torana is completely written off, and they were just innocent bystanders.

This is all part of racing, and whether it is an accident, or whether someone runs out of talent, the rules and waivers are there for these reasons.

Cheers

Greg

[Munroman]

If anyone needs proof of how far a forum war can go google powerchip..

SAU is nothing like PF

[hamiltonau]

yah only just discovered performance forums thanks to a link in a different thread regarding roger cordia endless comedy

got the cliff notes on the powerchip thing too, sounds like the owner of that company went a bit powermad in the worst sense of the word, yup, so very different rules over there. Kind of like the wild west nature of it but jeez it can get messy.

Thanks for the interesting posts anyway Thunder, great sentiments and i just think its a pity forums cant have a disclaimer like DVD commentaries do absolving themselves from any responsibilities for the random things people may have posted which would make a lot more sense.

Bathurst videos were awesome and it sure puts this incident in a little more perspective, i came close to touching doors with an Evo at wakefield yesterday and nearly shat myself, after seeing what eric went through and now these guys, certainly gets your heart racing along 'with' the car.

Anyway BBQ at ur dyno shop sounds awesome, and ive always been curious what kind of stock power i was putting out at the wheels with nothing but a bodgy exhaust. Whos going to brave enough to suggest a date? who supplies sangas and tinnies? (non alcoholic of course though i did go to a IS racing one that was just handing out beer).

Edited March 14, 2011 by hamiltonau

[Munroman]

I have been on PF for many years (another user name) It's another world. Thankfully SAU is nothing like PF. There is court action in May 2011 on that matter

Unlike the "owner" of PF, the owner of SAU is well known and can be exposed by members actions so we should be mindful when we make comments

PF does not hold events where people's real names are listed either. PF is one big smoke screen.and like you say the "Wild West"

So do I take it that I can bring my car to a dyno day and Surflo is supplying the dyno or am I mistaken

Is there a butcher in the house to supply snags?

Let's get behind Eric

Edited March 14, 2011 by Munroman

[Pezhead]

First and foremost I thank Thunder for the gracious offer but I am going to have to decline. It is a thoughtful gesture, but my wife and I have made up our minds that our fund raising activities will only be social events that have no commercial/company involvment.

As to the incidents that Thunder has posted, yes those kinds of accidents do happen in racing where cars are competing to get into the same few meters of track. Our track days are not about that. Our days are about private individuals having the opportunity to learn the performance characteristics of themselves and their cars. That is not the kind of environment where cars try to compete for those last few meters of the racing line before a corner.

Those that want to race door to door can join CAMS, get their log books and go racing. Simple, as a member of SAU you can get your CAMS and you just need a log booked car. There are quite a few on here that do just that.

But, a track day ISN'T racing! In fact anyone doing anything of the sort on a track day would be black flagged. The last thing I want in this thread is a bunch of sensational and frightening images that scare people off track days.

I still fully support track days and SAU for providing the venues and opportunities to take our cars out to a controlled environment where I can gradually learn to performance drive.

[Humbla]

Hey Eric,i have done a couple of sau track days,i'm very slow and i am hoping that we will continue to have these days,so older folks like me feel safe.I don't want to be out there slowing faster cars down and scareing the crap out of myself.

[MBS206]

Greg, as has been stated there are HUGE differences between motor sport, and racing for position, and our track days.

In fact, as they stated that they were under SAFETY CAR in that IPRA race, I'm curious as to why there was so much hard acceleration and cars side by side/overtaking.

Also, in certain motorsport events, there are further penalties and things that go on behind the scenes that we as fans, don't hear as much of.

I do also know of an event that ended up with a car being paid for by the other team to be repaired, under a CAMS sanctioned event. Why? Because said driver knew he was the cause, and felt obliged to fix the car.

Unfortunately, people don't like parting with their money until they are forced to. Hence why, even when we're on the road there are people, who have accidents, and try to find every way possible out of having to pay for a car they've run into.

And I haven't read the waiver in quite a long time, but I believe the waiver only clears you from sueing Wakefield Park. But even any good (And even most of the bad lawyers) will tell you that the waiver isn't worth the paper it's written on.

What people though need to understand when reading this thread, is that while accidents do happen they are EXTREMELY RARE on Track Days, and even RARER on SAU Track Days.

They are THE safest way to learn your own driving ability, and your own cars ability.

[Pezhead]

Actually, I have read the waiver and it is very clear that you are waiving the right to sue pretty much anyone within a five mile radius (I know Yankee expression) or even remotely associated with anyone or anything at the race track. Fair enough, I do understand why it is there - to protect motorsport. I have no intention of pursuing anything remotely like that as it will only damage the sport which I love.

[alr33x]

i think people are harping on a bit much about this other driver and his attitude, what happened sucks for pezhead no doubt what so ever, BUT if you aren't prepared for the worst case scenario to happen (such as this) then you really should re consider if you are ready to take your car out onto a track.

like i said i feel for pezhead but stuff happens and the guy isn;t under any obligation to pay damages to him.

good luck with your next project

[SKITTLES]

First and foremost I thank Thunder for the gracious offer but I am going to have to decline. It is a thoughtful gesture, but my wife and I have made up our minds that our fund raising activities will only be social events that have no commercial/company involvment.

As to the incidents that Thunder has posted, yes those kinds of accidents do happen in racing where cars are competing to get into the same few meters of track. Our track days are not about that. Our days are about private individuals having the opportunity to learn the performance characteristics of themselves and their cars. That is not the kind of environment where cars try to compete for those last few meters of the racing line before a corner.

Those that want to race door to door can join CAMS, get their log books and go racing. Simple, as a member of SAU you can get your CAMS and you just need a log booked car. There are quite a few on here that do just that.

But, a track day ISN'T racing! In fact anyone doing anything of the sort on a track day would be black flagged. The last thing I want in this thread is a bunch of sensational and frightening images that scare people off track days.

I still fully support track days and SAU for providing the venues and opportunities to take our cars out to a controlled environment where I can gradually learn to performance drive.

If a company is willing to assist in fund raising, you should take it.

I reckon a dyno day where anyone from SAU can dyno tune their car for like... $40, $20 goes to the company, $20 goes to the pot.

Have a sausage sizzle on the day. Profits go to the pot.

Collate pot.

Hand over opot.

Win at life.

Idealistic thinking etc.

I agree with the whole "track days isn't racing" thing... well.. they shouldn't be. I haven't been to a track day yet and this is making me a little worried about taking my car onto a track.

I can't hardly afford my car as it is... but I still want track time.

It would be an effort and a half to get some sort of system in place to fund prangs on track days, though. And it'd require a lot of debating by whoever manages CAMs to get track days and race days separated.

[Munroman]

Greg, as has been stated there are HUGE differences between motor sport, and racing for position, and our track days.

In fact, as they stated that they were under SAFETY CAR in that IPRA race, I'm curious as to why there was so much hard acceleration and cars side by side/overtaking.

What makes you think Tony Virag got slammed while under a safety car?

[hamiltonau]

What makes you think Tony Virag got slammed while under a safety car?

coz thats what the commentators say in the video..watch it one more time. to the end.

look at me sounding like a smart arse

the look on his face after he climbs out of the torana/crushed tin can..priceless.

Actually thats probably the wrong word to use considering those slumped shoulders are bearing the weight of a brain scrambling to figure out how much the bingle is going to cost him. poor bugger. As said before 'thats racing' but doesnt lessen the pain any.

Also pretty much as demonstrated the same thing can happen at trackdays if much much less often. Been going to wakefield since 2003, probably once a month and thats the first time ive seen a hit that bad.

Eastern creek you see it more often but thats a much faster track with less run off so its to be expected.

oh and dyno day doesnt have to be a charity thing for anyone in particular, mebbe do it for SAUs clubhouse to get it set up for gran turismo/ need for speed nights?

still looking forward to anything else Eric organises for his thing.

[MBS206]

What makes you think Tony Virag got slammed while under a safety car?

The fact the commentators announce the accident happened under safety car while they were still clearing an accident on another corner.

I agree with the whole "track days isn't racing" thing... well.. they shouldn't be. I haven't been to a track day yet and this is making me a little worried about taking my car onto a track.

I can't hardly afford my car as it is... but I still want track time.

It would be an effort and a half to get some sort of system in place to fund prangs on track days, though. And it'd require a lot of debating by whoever manages CAMs to get track days and race days separated.

The differentiation doesn't need to be made by CAMS. They are a motor sport governing body, and insurer.

The differentitation is made by the people running the event. IE, Skylines Australia NSW.

Taking point, that from all of the information that I have, there hasn't been a single accident like this at an SAU Day in over 9 years screams how safe these events truly are.

We enforce people to not overtake (Except the quickest group, as this is normally filled with racing drivers), unless the leading car instructs them to do so, or you are on the main straight.

There is strict enforcement of no actual racing, and if people find each other "closed up" on another car, they are encouraged to do a "drive through" of pit lane to put them some distance behind the other car.

Out of all of the track days run by clubs, SAU:NSW brings the largest variety of track experience, from complete noobies, to circuit racing champions. (And I mean proper trophy awarded champions)

On another note, there are many replies in this thread, especially from those that weren't there, or have never been on this track that show they have no clue on the art of circuit racing, and in particular the circuit of Wakefield Park, other wise they'd realise why Erics car was in such a position, at such a speed, with no way of seeing Richard. (Just look at how far from the left the car comes... Eric runs a wide angle lens on his camera... Those who can tell where he is in pit entry realise that from the apex his car is at a 90 degree angle... IE, view out the mirrors of said incoming car is IMPOSSIBLE)

Those attacking said business which owns the car, need to stop attacking it, at the same time, this said business needs to walk away from "the argument" as they are being just as bad as said non-attendees.

And at the same time, those of you who have said Richard should have turned away, well pretty much from just after initial turn in... He was commited, that car was going where it went.

What everyone needs to do, is stop arguing about the blame, and actually realise thats whats done is done, and this incident will only help SAU:NSW make our track days even safer then what they now are. And if you check our track record for incidents... That's a pretty impressive feat!

Please, those that can help Eric in his bad situation, through lending a hand, to help him part the car if need be, through to even putting him in contact with people who would be interested in the vehicle, please, do so, but please, no more arguing.

[GoldZilla]

I agree with the whole "track days isn't racing" thing... well.. they shouldn't be. I haven't been to a track day yet and this is making me a little worried about taking my car onto a track.

I can't hardly afford my car as it is... but I still want track time.

It would be an effort and a half to get some sort of system in place to fund prangs on track days, though. And it'd require a lot of debating by whoever manages CAMs to get track days and race days separated.

This is why this thread exists - NOT to scare you off, but to encourage you that this is still the best and safest way to properly experience your car with minimal risk to others, and NO cost to your licence. There are no telegraph poles to hit, no oncoming traffic, no pedestrians, and no hidden speed cameras to ping you! There are plenty of experienced people around to assist with driver training, and it's a friendly environment for all involved.

Yes, there is the risk of this happening, but once again, this is THE FIRST INCIDENT EVER TO OCCUR AT AN SAU TRACK DAY!!! And we're not in it to race, we're in it to improve our driving skills and experience our cars in a controlled environment.

Please DO NOT let this scare you off attending.

What makes you think Tony Virag got slammed while under a safety car?

Does it still really matter? The fact is this: "racing" and a "racing incident" is a lot different to driver training at a track day.

If you're prepared to competitively enter a car into a proper race event, you do so in the knowledge that you may well share paint with fellow racers.

This, however, is a driver training day, and as such the expectation that something like this will happen is almost non-existant. We know the risk is there, obviously, but also know that the likelyhood of this happening is a lot lower than at an official racing event.

[Munroman]

The fact the commentators announce the accident happened under safety car while they were still clearing an accident on another corner.

Eric runs a wide angle lens on his camera... Those who can tell where he is in pit entry realise that from the apex his car is at a 90 degree angle... IE, view out the mirrors of said incoming car is IMPOSSIBLE)

Thanks for that.

Link to video?

[MBS206]

Go back through the thread...

[a20089]

Getting boring.

I was there, saw it happen and want to help Eric.

Maybe the Moderators can remove (if they haven't already) the inappropriate references to Thunder's business (they would not normally be allowed anyway) and Thunder can let it rest. Then everbody will stop having to try and explain to a race shop how racing is different from a passenger instructional session.