Vipec Ecu - Need Sample Config

[jimbojones132]

Greetings from Canada, eh?

We've got a few VIPEC dealers up here but tuning seems to be an issue; particularly, R32 GT-R's (RB26DETT) with mild->medium mods (400-600whp).

Asked around and gotten a few (very general) opinions re: AFR, & 4D tables but nothing real to compare our values with (except each others). Common problems are running rich; we are using 2 or 4-wheel dynos w/wideband and trying to get the fuel trim right but I think we need to start from scratch with new AFR table, rework the 4D and move on from there.

Anyone got some sample VIPEC config files we could check out? Tuners have been taking a stab at this for a few years now but not making much headway. Don't get me wrong...cars run but not nearly as well as they could. Tireds of washing soot off of my bumper and watering-down my oil.

I hear this is the place to get VIPEC info....the place where they're made! Let's hear what you got...

Much appreciated

[The Dan]

No matter what country you are in, the tune should not be done any differently. I don't really understand what you are after, is it the config file for setting up ignition angle etc, or an actual tune?

If your tuner can't tune a car, then are they really best equipped for the job? They are no different to any other straight 6 on the planet really.

Don't forget that injector latency will have a big effect on the colour of the bumper and if you use something with a 2ms delay, then you may not be able to get it any better than 12:1 at idle. If you try to tune it at 14.7:1 at idle, all it will do is throw fuel out the tailpipe.

[Beer Baron]

it's pretty tough to provide a tune file that's going to be meaningful for cars in a very different climate with different fuel etc not to mention the different set-ups of the cars themselves. it's really something that needs to be customised for each car. maybe the wideband accuracy is not good? if cars are tuned to suitable AFRs but still seem to be running rich then perhaps get sensors recalibrated and also for each car that needs tuning spend $50 getting a boss welded into the front pipe (where the 2 merge) so the wideband sensor can be mounted there much closer to the engine. if they are using one stuck up the rear muffler it can and will give varied results.

[Scooby]

Mate seriously...they've been 'having a stab' for 'years'? Give Ray Hall a ring or send him an email. He's super responsive and has helped me out on two occasions when tuners have failed to achieve optimum results.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Scooby

[The Dan]

Mate seriously...they've been 'having a stab' for 'years'? Give Ray Hall a ring or send him an email. He's super responsive and has helped me out on two occasions when tuners have failed to achieve optimum results.

Using EFI Performance for all your tuning would cancel out any need to contact anyone for anything.....ever

I'm not kidding.

[jimbojones132]

What I'm after is (at least is) the AFR and 4D table for the VIpec/Rb26 tune; if someone was willing to share their config file, I could see that/other settings and take note if they are same/different and try to work from there.

I'm trying not to disrespect the tuner here; he is an authorized Vipec dealer w/Dynopac dyno and has done a number of vehicles and overall helpful....but seems to have issues with RB26's. Can make power but not drivability and there is no amount of 'debating' that is going to bring that about; only real data from other VIpec/GT-R's would reveal what could be some of the shortfalls. Good question/comments...will answer a few peoples in this note.

BTW - in my case, the injectors are 700cc Sards (drop in for RB26); lag is 0.65ms and I believe that is identical to factory. I didn't want to bore everyone with my 'vanilla' build but maybe it'll help people understand the config:

Unopened RB26 (except for cams); strong compression/even

2x Garrett 2860-5's

Tomei PonCam B

Sard 700cc injector w/hi-flow regulator and rail

Tomei header/dumps

HKS Silent y-pipe/catback

Innovate LC-1 WB; feeding back in to VIPEC and bung welded in to hollowed-out cat

- thought it might be a bit too far back; this is also where we put the WB for the dyno (we didn't use tailpipe sniffer)

- I know the LC-1 doesnt read 100% same as the Dynopac WB but it's farily close (.2-.4 variance across range) so we use it when closed loop

HKS DLI ignition pack w/Splitfire coilpacks

Running MAP mounted on VIPEC (considering changing to 3bar MAP sensor which will be mounted on firewall to shorten the boost signal path)

VIPEC plug/play

Hope this additional info helps.

BTW - I've contacted Ray Hall before and although friendly, pretty much told me to go back to my local guy. I'm sure he doesnt want the world calling him and reason why he doesnt sell direct to the whole planet (trains other guys and then sets them up to work with 'the locals'). Still, this has been going on too long and we need help; word is going around here that 'Vipec doesnt work with RB26' and I don't think that is the case from everything I've seen/heard coming out of your part of the world...we just need a good baseline.

No matter what country you are in, the tune should not be done any differently. I don't really understand what you are after, is it the config file for setting up ignition angle etc, or an actual tune?

If your tuner can't tune a car, then are they really best equipped for the job? They are no different to any other straight 6 on the planet really.

Don't forget that injector latency will have a big effect on the colour of the bumper and if you use something with a 2ms delay, then you may not be able to get it any better than 12:1 at idle. If you try to tune it at 14.7:1 at idle, all it will do is throw fuel out the tailpipe.

Edited March 24, 2011 by jimbojones132

[The Dan]

What I'm after is (at least is) the AFR and 4D table for the VIpec/Rb26 tune; if someone was willing to share their config file, I could see that/other settings and take note if they are same/different and try to work from there.

I'm trying not to disrespect the tuner here; he is an authorized Vipec dealer w/Dynopac dyno and has done a number of vehicles and overall helpful....but seems to have issues with RB26's. Can make power but not drivability and there is no amount of 'debating' that is going to bring that about; only real data from other VIpec/GT-R's would reveal what could be some of the shortfalls. Good question/comments...will answer a few peoples in this note.

BTW - in my case, the injectors are 700cc Sards (drop in for RB26); lag is 0.65ms and I believe that is identical to factory. I didn't want to bore everyone with my 'vanilla' build but maybe it'll help people understand the config:

Unopened RB26 (except for cams); strong compression/even

2x Garrett 2860-5's

Tomei PonCam B

Sard 700cc injector w/hi-flow regulator and rail

Tomei header/dumps

HKS Silent y-pipe/catback

Innovate LC-1 WB; feeding back in to VIPEC and bung welded in to hollowed-out cat

- thought it might be a bit too far back; this is also where we put the WB for the dyno (we didn't use tailpipe sniffer)

- I know the LC-1 doesnt read 100% same as the Dynopac WB but it's farily close (.2-.4 variance across range) so we use it when closed loop

HKS DLI ignition pack w/Splitfire coilpacks

Running MAP mounted on VIPEC (considering changing to 3bar MAP sensor which will be mounted on firewall to shorten the boost signal path)

VIPEC plug/play

Hope this additional info helps.

BTW - I've contacted Ray Hall before and although friendly, pretty much told me to go back to my local guy. I'm sure he doesnt want the world calling him and reason why he doesnt sell direct to the whole planet (trains other guys and then sets them up to work with 'the locals'). Still, this has been going on too long and we need help; word is going around here that 'Vipec doesnt work with RB26' and I don't think that is the case from everything I've seen/heard coming out of your part of the world...we just need a good baseline.

First thing you need to do is get rid of those shit bricks they call injectors. Test the ACTUAL latency on them (with an oscilloscope) and you'll find they'll be 2.2ms. I bet you have a really lumpy idle as well? That's because your tuner is trying to get the correct AFR at idle but can't due to the terrible latency those injectors have.

[jimbojones132]

I need something a bit more useful that 'get rid of those shit bricks'

1) I have no way to test them, as would be the same limitation for most people.

2) I assume your statement is based on some experience; I've seen MANY people running them and seem happy with them...and very few reports of problems....how did you come to that conclusion?

3) Even if the latency IS 2.2ms, why not adjust the VIPEC for such? Simply punch in the lag time and it figures out how much sooner/later it needs to actuate the injectors, no matter what their latency is?

4) I assume you have a recommendation for a good, proven, all-round injector capable of making 600whp...?

BTW- Idle is a bit lumpier than stock but was more noticable when I put the Tomei Poncams in, so I know they"re not the main cause.

First thing you need to do is get rid of those shit bricks they call injectors. Test the ACTUAL latency on them (with an oscilloscope) and you'll find they'll be 2.2ms. I bet you have a really lumpy idle as well? That's because your tuner is trying to get the correct AFR at idle but can't due to the terrible latency those injectors have.

[TiTAN]

are you running the map sensor off of two intake runners or one? if you are only running it off of one of them you need to change it ie use runners 3&4 (after the throttle plates) as it uses individual throttles and the runners are so short you wont get a stable map signal at low throttle on just one runner = shit low down drivablility.

[Deano45]

I need something a bit more useful that 'get rid of those shit bricks'

1) I have no way to test them, as would be the same limitation for most people.

2) I assume your statement is based on some experience; I've seen MANY people running them and seem happy with them...and very few reports of problems....how did you come to that conclusion?

3) Even if the latency IS 2.2ms, why not adjust the VIPEC for such? Simply punch in the lag time and it figures out how much sooner/later it needs to actuate the injectors, no matter what their latency is?

4) I assume you have a recommendation for a good, proven, all-round injector capable of making 600whp...?

BTW- Idle is a bit lumpier than stock but was more noticable when I put the Tomei Poncams in, so I know they"re not the main cause.

Have a look at this website for injectors Injector Dynamics

I personally haven't run them yet but know of people running their 1000's and 2000's without any issue. There is a lot of info on the site as well as a distributor in Canada.

As the guys keep saying on here, tuning is tuning. It doesn't matter what car, what engine, what ecu. Once a tuner learns the interface for the software they are using to tune the ecu, he should know how to tune the car using the fuel map and timing to get the car to do what he wants.

If not find another tuner that knows what tuning is about or maybe pay to get someone to dial in remotely to do a tune over the internet. It has been done before.

The other info you might want to supply is where/how you have the map sensor connected.

Have you tried the ViPec forums? They are full of information.

ViPec have developed the plug and play to work with an RB26 otherwise they wouldn't market it as such.

It is one of 2 things: 1) your tuner/ViPec dealer or 2) The ViPec ECU and the way you have it hooked up.

[jimbojones132]

Map sensor feed is as follow: from front balance tube output, there is a short line to a 'T, then one side runs to Fuel Pressure Reg and other down engine bay and in to VIPEC plug/play under dash using on-board MAP sensor. Was told this was acceptable config but I would think that a vacuum line that long (down engine, across firewall and in to cabin) would be, to the least , have lag in it plus perhaps a bit of 'stretch' as I'm using rubber vacuum line.

I have bought a (HALTECH) GM 3bar MAP which I could mount on the firewall and then feed that analog signal to the VIPEC; would most likely change the boost feed over to the rear balance tube outlet and 'T' it with the OEM boost box. That run would be 1/3 the distance and therefore less lag/stretch in the signal....but I just don't know if it will make much of a difference. I've seen so many opinions re: 'T' or not to 'T' the boost signal connection that I can't tell what the 'truth' is; frankly, I think if you have to 'T', that making the line to the source as short as possible is the right thing to do.

Going to a different tuner really isn't much of an option here; there are only 2 VIPEC dealers in Canada and the other one is across the country (Canada is a bit bigger than Australia); there are a few other tuners here but 1) most of them suck 2) they want to sell you THEIR ECU 3) if they tune your ECU, they are experimenting and try to charge you for every hour they spend trying to figure it out. Essentially, by the time they are done, the cost of the tune is about the cost of their ECU and they hand the car back saying 'no promises...you should have bought our ECU'. Very, very few options here.

re: Tune vs ECU/hooked up. there isn't much in the way to hooking up a plug/play other than what I already mentioned....theory #1 seems to be the most plausible at the moment. However, since no one has actually offered to share any detailed information re: ECU AFR and 4D table, I've got nothing to compare my tune config against and I'm right back at where I started: a bunch of speculation and no direction.

Have a look at this website for injectors Injector Dynamics

I personally haven't run them yet but know of people running their 1000's and 2000's without any issue. There is a lot of info on the site as well as a distributor in Canada.

As the guys keep saying on here, tuning is tuning. It doesn't matter what car, what engine, what ecu. Once a tuner learns the interface for the software they are using to tune the ecu, he should know how to tune the car using the fuel map and timing to get the car to do what he wants.

If not find another tuner that knows what tuning is about or maybe pay to get someone to dial in remotely to do a tune over the internet. It has been done before.

The other info you might want to supply is where/how you have the map sensor connected.

Have you tried the ViPec forums? They are full of information.

ViPec have developed the plug and play to work with an RB26 otherwise they wouldn't market it as such.

It is one of 2 things: 1) your tuner/ViPec dealer or 2) The ViPec ECU and the way you have it hooked up.

[Guilt-Toy]

if this is such a big problem, gather all the guys with GTR's who have issues, find a workshop who will hire out their dyno, and call a decent tuner in to fix the cars for you.

some tuners travel around a fair bit, you just need to find the right one, id normally be interested but i just do not have time these days.

[Don Dada]

However, since no one has actually offered to share any detailed information re: ECU AFR and 4D table, I've got nothing to compare my tune config against and I'm right back at where I started: a bunch of speculation and no direction.

Sorry to say but there are very few guys who would help you out in this department and i understand where you are coming from, just wanting to see another table just for reference purposes and not an actual tune.....not sure how the software works?

Not to mention vipec is "fairly" new to skylines so a lot less ppl have experience with them unlike the pfc wich every Tom Dick and Harry has and yet it is still very hard to get decent tuning info out of ppl here

Good luck man

[jimbojones132]

Got some more info re: VIPEC layour so my current understanding is:

1) 4D values are 'theoretical': lay them down and move on

2) AFR table is also theoretical but you populate from 4D and then 'tweak it' ; in case you see cells that are not to your liking. e.g. lean out a section for cruising, check AFR @ high RPM/boost area and make sure you have enough fuel to control detonation.

3) then you dyno/WB and fill Fuel table cells with autotune (it sets the correct value to hit the AFR you want)

I know this is over-simplified but just reasoning-out what I actually need to see: a 4D table and AFR table still seem valid to me. I got an opinion from another tuner that, when he saw my 4D table, figured it was at least 10% (and as high as 20%) too rich. Of course, they wouldn't share their 4D table with me...

Did drop a note to Vipec themselves...other than that, I guess it may go up on eBay.

Sorry to say but there are very few guys who would help you out in this department and i understand where you are coming from, just wanting to see another table just for reference purposes and not an actual tune.....not sure how the software works?

Not to mention vipec is "fairly" new to skylines so a lot less ppl have experience with them unlike the pfc wich every Tom Dick and Harry has and yet it is still very hard to get decent tuning info out of ppl here

Good luck man

[wolverine]

(Canada is a bit bigger than Australia)

9 million square km vs 7.7 million square km. Yeah yours is bigger than ours. You do have nearly twice as many people. A shame you don't have more tuners willing to stretch themselves.

[Super_Dude]

I'm running a vipec up here and I have no problems. The vipec does everything we tell it too and AFR's are right where we want them. Something else is wrong with your setup beyond the Vipec tuning.

I would double check your injector latency. If it is indeed in the 2.2 range and you have it set at .65 that would seriously mess things up. Also, Are you running closed loop on idle?

[The Dan]

I need something a bit more useful that 'get rid of those shit bricks'

1) I have no way to test them, as would be the same limitation for most people.

2) I assume your statement is based on some experience; I've seen MANY people running them and seem happy with them...and very few reports of problems....how did you come to that conclusion?

3) Even if the latency IS 2.2ms, why not adjust the VIPEC for such? Simply punch in the lag time and it figures out how much sooner/later it needs to actuate the injectors, no matter what their latency is?

4) I assume you have a recommendation for a good, proven, all-round injector capable of making 600whp...?

BTW- Idle is a bit lumpier than stock but was more noticable when I put the Tomei Poncams in, so I know they"re not the main cause.

I understand most people would not have the kind of equipment to test them but surely your tuner would?

Yes my statement is based on experience, the experience of throwing away dozens of sets to swap them for a Seimens injector of equivalent sizing and have perfect injector control from 500rpm up to a perfect spray pattern at 10,000rpm

We have tested the Denso (SARD) injectors in most sizes and they usually come out at over 2ms. I'm pretty sure the Vipec will be unable to correct it as Link, Wolf, Motec and Autronic cannot.

[jimbojones132]

Wow...that's horrible to think that SARD/Denso product is so out of spec; I dont think I saw that my tuner's shop had an oscilliscope but I can check. As a test, my idle is closed-loop so figured I'd give a test by bumping the lag time by a few .10's and see if they car liked that e.g. should correct itself AFR-wise with the new lag punched in. It did not like it at all...and the further I went the less it liked it. What the REAL value of those injectors are...remains to be seen. Heard guys recommend other brands but I'd like to keep them drop-in style (e.g. no harness-hacking)...are the Siemens like that or what other brands do guys recommend?

Understood the other fellows comment re: getting a bunch of us together and finding someone else to tune our cars in 1 session. Problem is, these cars are anywhere from a few/several 100'kms apart and like I said earlier, non-VIPEC tuners are either 1) complete amatuers 2) pushing their own brands. Recall: Canada is almost 50% bigger than Australia and we have only 50% of the Vipec dealers...major logisitical issues. As for the 'try another brand/tuner' option, convincing up to 1/2 dozen fellows to throw thousands $ of ECU's/tuning in the garbage is like setting a mint GT-R on fire for laughs...not likely to happen unless mass hysteria sets in.

I did get a note back from Ray Hall with comments on the config file I sent him; off-cuff, he found a number of basic items mis-configured and provided a few recommendations. Not enough to get this straightened out from but I did forward them on to my tuner; hopefully I can get everyone working on the same page to resolve this.

***

Request still stands: anyone having a similar build to mine and wanting to share their VIPEC data...would be greatly appreciated.

email: [email protected] - your info, if requested, will be kept in confidence

***

I understand most people would not have the kind of equipment to test them but surely your tuner would?

Yes my statement is based on experience, the experience of throwing away dozens of sets to swap them for a Seimens injector of equivalent sizing and have perfect injector control from 500rpm up to a perfect spray pattern at 10,000rpm

We have tested the Denso (SARD) injectors in most sizes and they usually come out at over 2ms. I'm pretty sure the Vipec will be unable to correct it as Link, Wolf, Motec and Autronic cannot.

[Beer Baron]

I'm not sure the injectors are the problem. i have run a few sets of the sard 700s with the advertised 0.65ms lag time in my own cars (with power FC) and never had a problem with idle or getting the AFRs I wanted. if they are 2.2ms then it's news to me and dozens of others I know who've run them at that latency with no problems.

it sounds to me like a simple case of the tune not quite right. do you know what kind of target AFR your tuner is looking at under full throttle, loaded, full boost runs (power runs?). start there, maybe do a log of a full throttle 3rd gear run (if you can) and check the AFRs for yourself. 02 sensor in a hollowed out cat is not ideal but not terrible either. ideally I'd have it in just ahead of the front pipe-cat flange (so just after the Y merge of the front pipes).

it may be time to set yourself up with a laptop and start learning the vipec software. you already have the wideband 02, so perhaps invest in a set of DET cans or some kind of knock meter and then start tuning it yourself.

[PM-R33]

Little bit off topic but I didn't want to start a new thread.

What target AFR do you guys normally run on closed loop idle and closed loop cruise?

I'm setting my closed loop WB up at the moment for good fuel economy and was wanting to know how lean you guys go? For reference the car only ever runs 98 octane.

Also for the Vipec it can run two closed loop modes. I read up on both and can't really determine what one would suit me better?

WB Closed Loop

Given a target AFR (from the Target AFR Table), the ECU will progressively increase the fuel trim value when measured AFR is above this value (lean). Likewise, the ECU will decrease the fuel trim value when the measured AFR is below the target AFR (too rich). The result is an AFR continuously cycling around the Target AFR value, this is known as dithering. Note that even though there is a table of AFR target values only one global fuel trim is ever applied (ie. each cell is not trimmed independently).

WB Closed Loop Mode 2

Given a target AFR (from the Target AFR Table), the ECU will use a closed loop control algorithm to calculate the appropriate fuel trim value required. This method provides a fast and stable correction especially when the difference between the target and actual AFRs is large. Note that even though there is a table of AFR target values only one global fuel trim is ever applied (ie. each cell is not trimmed independently).