I Was Going To Switch To E85...

[Thelen]

I know Haltech are adding support for an Ethenol sensor (same as the new e85 commo uses), so your tune can change the match the ethenol %. I'm sure other ECU makers are doing the same too. In reality the blend is never going to be 85% all the time, so these sensors will probably be the way forward for us.

But I live in tassie, so I can only buy E85 in 200l drums for the forseeable future

+1 to the sensor, it in fact will be the way of future for tuning in general. It is funny we are still using basically 200 year old technology to tune our engines

+1 to 200l drums, group buys maybe?

[WARLORD]

that is right "no homo" for marko

its good isn't Marko just like Jim Richards said.

[SS8_Gohan]

some tuners just aren't quite up to speed with E85 yet. Had a rep tuner here in melb tell me all my lines were going to corrode, fuel pump will die, injectors were going to to die etc etc, that was for my GTT...... 2.5 years of constant E85 use later says otherwise (new owner has car on Eflex, with very little if any change from Trents tune from manildra's E85).

the other thing with E85 is that it's very hard to tune to the 'ragged edge' anyway because past a certain timing point you start to lose power - so the actual sweet spot is a long way from DET - probably why there aren't really any issues going between a E85+ United/Manildra tune to Caltex without any tune changes, ontop of the car being richer with more petrol anyway

[T04GTR]

well we are coming into winter, so e70 will be availabe as the "winter blend" to aid cold starting.

[DR 32R]

I live near the Rozelle United, so will revolve life around it. I don't feel concerned about E70. How confident are you that you are getting 98 every time you fill?

[Rolls]

Assuming E70 is the worst case then tune for E70, that way if you get E90 for example you just run richer than expected and make less power, E70 to E90 shouldn't be a huge change in AFRs, might knock 10kw(??) off your score and use more fuel but it should be acceptable.

If you tuned for E85 for example and got E70 then you'd get a lean condition, this is bad. What do people think of this strategy, is the AFR difference from E70 to E90 that dramatic?

I live near the Rozelle United, so will revolve life around it. I don't feel concerned about E70. How confident are you that you are getting 98 every time you fill?

98 is regulated and must be at least 98, E85 is not and they state that it is the case as they mix it on the spot in the tanks.

Edited April 21, 2011 by Rolls

[Birds]

Tell me if I'm wrong here, cause I'm still fairly new to ethanol, but shouldn't it be the other way around? I.e. E85 will present a lean condition if you're tuned on E70. Given you need ~30% extra fuel flow when running E85 compared to petrol, it makes sense that ethanol is the leaner of the two. Any extra petrol content should therefore enrichen the mix.

It's tuning on E70 and running E85 that should give you worries, if anything. But the difference between the two is not enough to cause worry anyway...just get a wideband to keep an eye on it for the sake of being safe. Worst case scenario you'll lose power, like you said.

You could run two selectable tunes and change these with a laptop, or tune for E80 as a happy medium, or just keep an eye on things. Or go all out with an ethanol sensor and 3D fuel maps.

[scotty nm35]

well we are coming into winter, so e70 will be availabe as the "winter blend" to aid cold starting.

You are right Birds, not that it would change by that much and I cant seem to foul the plugs no matter how rich I go. From my experience you can run a little leaner due to having more volume of fuel cooling the pistons, my latest tune adds only 18% not 30.

We have been on "winter" blend (e70) since the pumps went in, im not sure they will switch anything till next summer, if at all. There is certainly no power loss having a bit more petrol in the mix, if anything it helps ignite the ethanol quicker improving the burn. Personally I hope they just leave it e70.

OP, what's all the drama about? Man up and get on board, its the only way Caltex will roll out more pumps...

[Rolls]

Tell me if I'm wrong here, cause I'm still fairly new to ethanol, but shouldn't it be the other way around? I.e. E85 will present a lean condition if you're tuned on E70. Given you need ~30% extra fuel flow when running E85 compared to petrol, it makes sense that ethanol is the leaner of the two. Any extra petrol content should therefore enrichen the mix.

It's tuning on E70 and running E85 that should give you worries, if anything. But the difference between the two is not enough to cause worry anyway...just get a wideband to keep an eye on it for the sake of being safe. Worst case scenario you'll lose power, like you said.

You could run two selectable tunes and change these with a laptop, or tune for E80 as a happy medium, or just keep an eye on things. Or go all out with an ethanol sensor and 3D fuel maps.

You are right, my bad, it would be the opposite.

[SimonR32]

Timing wise will not be a issue at all, we have a lot of RB's over here running only E43 and they won't ping regardless of timing and that is running decent boost (up to 2bar)

AFR's could be a little bit of a issue, but as others have said if you have E70 tune a little rich or if tuning with E90 tune a little leaner if you are intending on swapping between

[Marko R1]

If you tuned for E85 for example and got E70 then you'd get a lean condition, this is bad. What do people think of this strategy, is the AFR difference from E70 to E90 that dramatic?

this was exactly the point my tuner made & hence why its worth creating a thread on this topic - lean is detrimental!

[NXTIME]

Time to get a new tuner

[wrxkilla]

drums of CSR E85 for the winnah !

[ahh 33 s2]

What's a barrel worth?

[DR 32R]

Detonation kills the RB turbo, 70, 85 90 are all fairly hard fuels to detonate on, to me the air fuel ratio variance will be minor in practice. If you're worried get a contract with CSR for drums,or the Holden SAAB ethanol sensor. If you tune for E85/90 you are richer on E70, still reasonably safe.

Edited April 22, 2011 by WHITE gtt

[wrxkilla]

What's a barrel worth?

It seems to be about $2 - $2.50 per litre depending on who you are buying it from.

So upto $500 for a 200 litre drum...

[HYPED6]

I have been running E85 for about 8 months now. Its a 32gtr on a standard bottom end. This is how I have set it up and the reasons why.

Firstly, I run E85 from caltex.

Now for full throttle stuff. I tune my engine rich, rich enough that it hurts power a little. Id rather see a massive safety margin and loose 20hp.

I run my engine at 0.73 Lambda. This does 2 things.

It keeps My EGT's under 800c. This is measured on every cylinder, out of the head port.

It give me a safety margin so if I get E76.24 or E90 then is doesnt really matter.

Now, The next thing I do, for light loads I run a 5 wire wide band sensor. Nothing new I know, but its what I do with the information that is important.

It tunes my engine at light loads to Lambda 1 for emissions. It does not matter what fuel, its target is lambda 1.

This is where is gets interesting.

I feed the wide band into the ECU. I then tell the ECU if its over 20psi, and at full throttle, and over 5500rpm and it see's mixtures leaner than 0.87 lambda, Add fuel.

If it adds fuel and the mixtures are still too lean, Then it adds more fuel and starts too pulls boost. If it is still too lean, it drops the boost to gate pressure and displays a red warning light.

I run a RGB Led shift light that can display 8 different colors. Its completely controlled by the ECU. Now if the light goes red from the mixtures, It stays red until the ignition is cycled.

This setup is relevant for any fuel, any setup. I have this setup for Oil temp, engine temp (blue to too cold, Flashing red/blue for too hot) Shift.etc etc.

Now, I am still running the pistons that came with the car. From factory. Im making just shy of 600rwhp on 29 pound. My car had probably done 12,000 k in the last 18 months.

And for you playing at home, I have 1200cc Injectors and they are maxed at these power levels and mixtures.

[Piggaz]

this was exactly the point my tuner made & hence why its worth creating a thread on this topic - lean is detrimental!

That quote was the wrong way around. If you get tuned on the United juice (E85) and you throw the Caltex juice in which can be E70 you will run RICHER AFR's as there is more petrol in the fuel. As I said man.... I have run both and have even done a hillclimb event on most of a tank full of the Caltex stuff... Not a issue at all. If i was to do a trackday at EC of course I would make the effort to drive to Rozelle and stock up on the wicked Jungle Juice.

[discopotato03]

I spoke to Scott K at Insight a while back and he mentioned that he has used the GM sensor system with the ViPec V88 and it has the ability to alter its settings based on the ethanol sensors readings .

I think he said its about correction tables and that its not a linear change in timing and fueling between say E70 and E85 .

I personally think its a bit piss poor that the service stations don't tell you the exact ratio they're pumping and it wouldn't be all that expensive for them to have readouts at the pump to show us .

I suppose the cover all is that OE flex fuelled cars have the ability to self adjust and not have engine damage issues .

I'm sure its been mentioned that high percentages of ethanol make for harder starting with cold engines in cold climates but I personally think theres more to it than that . Its not impossible that Caltex is playing games with supply costs of fuel grade (anhydrous) ethanol to try and make more money from it .

I just wish it were possible to affordably buy fuel grade ethanol so you make your own blend up .

I'm not 100% sure that E70-E85 is even a good all round mix given that so many fuel system changes (pump/injectors) have to be made to pass the extra volume to keep the high ethanol content AFRs up .

I'd really like to see some experimentation done on say E25 to E50 blends to try and find a sweet spot . I reckon if you could get away with E25 to E40 you would have less of the problems people do now with pump E85 .

Somewhere there will be a sliding scale with ethanol percentages and I reckon the high agro end of the scale will follow the high ethanol percentage end .

Wouldn't it be nice to rock up to the servo with say 30L of fuel grade ethanol (20+10)containers , pour it in and fill with 98ULP . Consistant E50 which I think should run quite well . Or even 20L to make E33 .

Nice if you could buy fuel grade ethanol .

A .

[discopotato03]

Actually I'm a twit , or similar sounding thing . What you could do is buy Caltex EFlex and test its Ethanol content and add the appropriate amount of say Ultimate 98 to make a consistant blend of something less than 70% ethanol . To end up with E50 shouldn't be to hard .

A .

Must have first coffee before posting ...