Which Has More Potential In The Long Run?

[TurboDoseBro]

Hey guys,

I have this theory which I base my car around: That in the long run with a decent budget on the car, an R32 GTS-T will be faster around the track than it's flagship brother; the R32 GTR (assuming both with the same RB26 engine). This is because of these factors:

- GTS-T is lighter and better front to rear weight balance.

- With modifications the GTS-T will be further lighter.

- The R32 GTR has the most understeer and eliminating that will provide more potential.

- GTS-T will have faster turn in from lighter front.

- An AWD system is only used for additional traction so if aero parts are in and modified correctly then the extra weight of AWD is not needed.

- R32 AWD system too primitive.

- More fun around the track.

- Cheaper.

There is a reason all the JGTC and GT class Skylines are all RWD, I'm sure it's from the fact that from long term modification, the AWD system is no longer needed. If you look at the statistics, the GTS-T is already 110kg lighter than the GTR (standard eninges), and whatever you can do to the GTR you can do to the GTS-T. Now before anyone starts flaming, I'm not hating on the GTRs but I dare you guys to prove me wrong on this.

Statistics:

R32 GTR

Curb weight: 1430kg

Drivetrain: F4

Track width front and rear: 1480mm / 1480mm

Wheelbase: 2615mm

Suspension: Independent multi-link

R32 GTS-T

Curb weight: 1320kg

Drivetrain: FR

Track width front and rear: 1460mm / 1460mm

Wheelbase: 2615mm

Suspension: Independant multi-link

[51NNA]

I agree!

[djr81]

Your theory is complete rubbish.

[MrWindsurf]

Looks at the date ... its not holidays yet

[(OO)SKYLINE(OO)]

Hey guys,

I have this theory which I base my car around: That in the long run with a decent budget on the car, an R32 GTS-T will be faster around the track than it's flagship brother; the R32 GTR (assuming both with the same RB26 engine). This is because of these factors:

- GTS-T will have faster turn in from lighter front.

So you are saying if you put in a RB26DETT in a GTS-T, the engine becomes lighter in weight?

If so, how does putting the same engine in a different car make it lighter?

- GTS-T is lighter and better front to rear weight balance.

With a RB26DETT in a GTS-T, the balance will be totally different.

- With modifications the GTS-T will be further lighter.

What difference will it make if you are both running a RB26DETT and light weight both.

- The R32 GTR has the most understeer and eliminating that will provide more potential.

- An AWD system is only used for additional traction so if aero parts are in and modified correctly then the extra weight of AWD is not needed.

- R32 AWD system too primitive.

The GTR is AWD to reduce understeer, FWD gives you understeer.

Hence why the AWD system will give you better traction.

Aero parts are good for stability and only to a certain point.

ie. A GT Wing Spoiler.

If the wing is angled at the correct spot, it will improves aerodynamic performance at high speed.

To increase drag or generate down force, helps stabilise the rear of the car = More control = Faster you go.

The angle of attack of the wing on some cars can be adjusted to increase downward force over the rear wheels, but it has the dual result of increasing drag.

Too much drag = Slow you down.

The R32 GTR's Advanced Total Traction Engineering System for All-Terrain (ATTESA 4WD) design is still used today on the R35 GTR but with further updates.

So the basis of the system still exsist.

- More fun around the track.

- Cheaper.

Whatever characteristics you prefer is what is more fun to you and all cars cost money.

There is a reason all the JGTC and GT class Skylines are all RWD, I'm sure it's from the fact that from long term modification, the AWD system is no longer needed. If you look at the statistics, the GTS-T is already 110kg lighter than the GTR (standard eninges), and whatever you can do to the GTR you can do to the GTS-T. Now before anyone starts flaming, I'm not hating on the GTRs but I dare you guys to prove me wrong on this.

Statistics:

R32 GTR

Curb weight: 1430kg

Drivetrain: F4

Track width front and rear: 1480mm / 1480mm

Wheelbase: 2615mm

Suspension: Independent multi-link

R32 GTS-T

Curb weight: 1320kg

Drivetrain: FR

Track width front and rear: 1460mm / 1460mm

Wheelbase: 2615mm

Suspension: Independant multi-link

JGTC's are RWD because that is part of the Rules and Regulations.

A JGTC is not based on a GTS-T.

[wlspn]

^^SKYLINE, even with the RB26 in the GTST its still going to be lighter & have a better front to rear weight ratio due to the lack of front diff, transfer case, etc, etc...

I am going through this decision as well. Currently have a GTR & a GTST & am tempted to put all the good GTR bits on the GTST & do it up as I believe I can make it a better car than the GTR for the same budget.

[sinistaGTR]

^^^^^^^ and what about the grip levels the gtr provides

[wlspn]

How much grip is provided by the GTR on corners though? Serious question, not a smart-arse remark... Bought the GTR I have not long ago in need of repair, & most others I have driven are mates so haven't really driven a GTR in anger for quite a while.

I know the GTR will rape on launch but how much difference in corners?

Serious suspension setup & wide, sticky tyres would obviously be necessary for RWD

[Krovikan]

The Weight difference between the 2 is the mainly ATTESA 4WD system... thats pretty much it other than small things like 2 turbos n bigger intercooler... it was the ATTESA 4WD system that won races in its class back in the day with the RB26 - (before ATTESA was brought in, it was origonally gonna be a 2.4 turbo but was not competitive due to the extra weight).... as for which is better... when modifying... it comes down to personal preference

my 2 cents

[mad082]

if you are on a high speed track with sticky tyres where losing traction when accelerating isn't an issue than the gts-t would be faster (if running the same engine). however any track with low speed, second gear corners, when you floor it coming out of the corner you will get wheelspin, or you will have to slowly apply the accelerator in the gts-t. in the GTR you can just floor it. this is the advantage of AWD. once traction isn't an issue then awd in any car simply becomes a dead weight and the lighter car will be faster.

as someone said above about the JGTC cars being rwd because of regulations, that is 100% correct. it is also the same reason they are V8.

as for understeer, which has more will come down to setup. they will both suffer from understeer when pushed hard, however they will suffer it under different conditions. lighter front end doesn't always help with turn in. look at the porsche 911. they suffer from understeer a bit because they are too light in the front end.

long story short, which is faster will depend on the track and power level of the car. the more power and the tighter the track the more of an advantage it will be, but on something like a banked oval awd would be slower.

[iplen]

There are reasons that 4wd is outlawed in the majority of racing categories, and that where it is legal, it wins... There are the odd exceptions, a few FWD victories in WRC on tarmac in the mid 90s being examples. I spent a year rallying an RS impreza, then went back to an AE111 Levin, the RS was heavier, less powerful and much worse geared, but there was NO comparison, even a fast open downhill stage (Levin had bigger brakes too). I am not saying this is a hard fast rule, and I take great joy in beating 4wds in my 2wd, but it takes some work

[Nee-san]

God this thread is f**king retarded.

[r32gtr92]

When i went to buy my line i was all for gtr, everything was pointed towards geting one however after looking at five r32 gtrs, taking three through workshops to get inspected the results wer f@$king appauling, my gtst that i looked at came back right on 100percent minus the mags that were on her they were " illegal " lol

Now 2 1/2 years later i have built my car two my specs and how i enjoy driving it, shouldnt do it on the streets but plenty of r drivers all ways try to give me shit on the road and i leave them for dead esspecially through the hills, i like different parts of each car eg, gtr front grill bar etc etc, the way my rb20 screams onto boost, at the end of the day i bought my line as a project to modify and coustimize i actually perfer the way my 32 gtst feels over other gtrs i have driven.

If i had my way id buy every model of line lol hahah

My two cents!

Joe.

Btw i mad my accont before i bought a gtst Lol

[wlspn]

God this thread is f**king retarded.

Yeah, how dare people not realise the GTR is the absolute be all & end all of performance cars!

Stupid pricks with their ....... opinions! I for one sincerely apologise...

Dont like it GTFO

[Nee-san]

Yeah, None of which I actually stated in my post but thanks for the inference.

My issue was with the total lack of understanding shown in the reasoning people were putting forward when they were purporting the benefits of a RWD race car.

Notice, I didn't actually give my opinion one way or another ?

[wlspn]

lol, just messing with you dude... For all I know you own a GTST!

Just amazes me how many people (& not just on here) believe that the ONLY true jap performance car is the GTR. If thats the case why do the jap workshops build other cars at all...

& don't get me wrong I love GTRs! Just not one-eyed so to speak.

Would ideally build my 32 GTST as a hardcore RWD then later in life build a 34 GTR.

The main thing right now putting me off building a GTR is if I started I would sink a lot of money & would prefer to do that with a 34. Where for a lot less money I could build my GTST....

Out of intereset what is your opinion? From your reply it seems you may have some understanding of the benefits of RWD race-cars?

In all seriousness as I don't really follow it, are there any/many RWD time-attack cars, either here or in Japan? & how do they rate against the GTRs/Evos, etc?

[TurboDoseBro]

So you are saying if you put in a RB26DETT in a GTS-T, the engine becomes lighter in weight?

If so, how does putting the same engine in a different car make it lighter?

With a RB26DETT in a GTS-T, the balance will be totally different.

What difference will it make if you are both running a RB26DETT and light weight both.

The GTR is AWD to reduce understeer, FWD gives you understeer.

Hence why the AWD system will give you better traction.

Aero parts are good for stability and only to a certain point.

ie. A GT Wing Spoiler.

If the wing is angled at the correct spot, it will improves aerodynamic performance at high speed.

To increase drag or generate down force, helps stabilise the rear of the car = More control = Faster you go.

The angle of attack of the wing on some cars can be adjusted to increase downward force over the rear wheels, but it has the dual result of increasing drag.

Too much drag = Slow you down.

The R32 GTR's Advanced Total Traction Engineering System for All-Terrain (ATTESA 4WD) design is still used today on the R35 GTR but with further updates.

So the basis of the system still exsist.

Whatever characteristics you prefer is what is more fun to you and all cars cost money.

JGTC's are RWD because that is part of the Rules and Regulations.

A JGTC is not based on a GTS-T.

Although the post under you has pretty much rebutted all your arguements, the GTS-T will still be lighter in the front end and overall due to not having AWD driveshafts.

If AWD was to reduce understeer and FWD = understeer don't you think driving the front wheels will give more understeer? That made so sense at all. AWD system will give you more traction but when you have everything engineered right, it's more of a hinderence.

Drag is not a problem, if you wanted better drag you should have chose another car instead of a 0.4 Cd car. F1 cars have crazy drag but it's functional. Extra power will overcome it, and the RB26 will have no problem providing it.

Even if the JGTC cars are regulated at RWD, they're still faster with the Skyline shell.

Old ATTESSA is primitive. You can't even compare the R32 system to the R35 system. R32's ATTESSA only kicks in when there is a detection of difference in the rolling distance of the rear and front wheels where it sends 0-50% of the torque to the front axles. R35's AWD system controls all 4 wheels independently.

Edited May 10, 2011 by TyresBro

[TurboDoseBro]

if you are on a high speed track with sticky tyres where losing traction when accelerating isn't an issue than the gts-t would be faster (if running the same engine). however any track with low speed, second gear corners, when you floor it coming out of the corner you will get wheelspin, or you will have to slowly apply the accelerator in the gts-t. in the GTR you can just floor it. this is the advantage of AWD. once traction isn't an issue then awd in any car simply becomes a dead weight and the lighter car will be faster.

as someone said above about the JGTC cars being rwd because of regulations, that is 100% correct. it is also the same reason they are V8.

as for understeer, which has more will come down to setup. they will both suffer from understeer when pushed hard, however they will suffer it under different conditions. lighter front end doesn't always help with turn in. look at the porsche 911. they suffer from understeer a bit because they are too light in the front end.

long story short, which is faster will depend on the track and power level of the car. the more power and the tighter the track the more of an advantage it will be, but on something like a banked oval awd would be slower.

Yes I agree that AWD will have the advantage of the corner exit, but wait, isn't that only 1/3 of the corner? What about braking? What about turning and maintaining that speed?

You can't compare a MR or RR layout, they are very different to the traditional FR. Friction on tyres = coefficient of grip * mass, therefore less load on turning wheels from engine at back = less grip when turning, and especially when accelerating while doing so.

Agreed 100% with wlspn. GTR isn't the be all and end all of Skylines.

Guys, also don't get me wrong. A well advanced AWD will beat a RWD in terms of potential (or anything really) anytime. But in the case of R32s which were made well back in the days, I think it is more potent in the long run without the AWD. To all the guys saying 'this thread is shit' or 'school holidays bro' etc. Why don't you state why this is a stupid theory instead of just cursing? Surely I'm not the only one that's interested.

Edited May 10, 2011 by TyresBro

[iplen]

I'm with you Tyres, people just declaring stuff to be shit with no reasoning is more like a primary school kid than the usual flow of high school kids we get around holiday time. There are things you have said that I may not agree with, but they are opinions, and that is what your entitled to.

[waxracing]

_{The gtst will kick the gtr in corner entry and mid cornet. its only when you are on corner exit are you going to have an advantage.}

_{If you were building a serious track car you would be suing traction control as well so it would bring the difference in corner entry alot closer.}

_{If you were to use alot of the lite weight gtr parts on an gtst you would end up with a very light and compeitive car.}

_{I have gone the other way and Im putting an rb30det under the bonnet to add extra weight. but oh so cool when you stand on the noise peddle}

_{The gtr was awesome in its day and is a great car I would love one as I think they will be worth heaps in the future.}