Cam Timing- Rb26

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

1 minute ago, Predator1 said:

haha i would If I was in the same country as my car 

lol.. yeah that would help!

[GTSBoy]

Cam timing will not deliver a hundred ponies though. We're talking window dressing here.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

At least the idle will be angry lol.

[Lithium]

Late to the party, I feel like I've been involved in a few conversations about this setup here and elsewhere and I feel like it's a thing which is going around in circles so I'm going to keep it to bullet points addressing whoever they may be relevant to.  Correct me if any of my assumptions are wrong here.

• There are various mentions of E85 tuning on here, I'm pretty sure this is running BP98?
• 30c intake temp is NOT high
• If you are running 24psi on a responsive setup and still have under 30psi EMAP when getting near the end of the compressor flow of the turbo that is really good.  1:1 EMAP vs IMAP and below that are great to strive for, but going over that is not a problem if it's within sensible levels.  The ratio based off the logging in this case is not cause for concern at all, however...
• While the max compressor speed for an EFR9180 is 116,000krpm and you're "only" at 103,000rpm - 103,000rpm is still off the map in this case, note the red dot.    When you go under 60% compressor efficiency everything starts getting a lot harder, the compressor air temp goes up heaps and your intercooler has to work harder to get IATs in check - the turbo has to work harder to get any more flow and EMAP starts creeping up.    I'd call this setup fairly maximized without being stupid about it.
  

So yeah, at least for pump gas this is probably the right place to call it - both tuners seem to be it pretty close territory with each other and the data lines up that you're near the end.   1000hp @ engine (if you're aiming for at the wheels then it ain't happening at all) is an ambitious target on an EFR9180 on a big engine, that turbo is actually probably better suited to smaller ones that need more boost to achieve those numbers.

There are mentions of the cam timing, again - you are turbo limited at this point.   Doing things to make the setup work better psi for psi is going to make it WORSE, not better in this case as the 9180 is happier at higher boost.   If you dial the cams in a way that they are going to need less boost to make the same power, you're going to shift to a less happy part of the 9180's comp map and it's going to be even less happy than it is at the moment.  Ironically if you go the other way, you're going to potentially start struggling with octane limitations.

Things like cam spec, cam timing etc increase your engines ability to move a volume of air but it doesn't matter much if the turbo can't efficiently push dense charge at the volume you want at the boost you're trying to push.   The ways of making more power at this point in my opinion are:
 

• Use a fuel that allows you to get more power out of the amount of airflow you are moving (ethanol, methanol, nitromethane hahaha)
• Add more air to the combustion process somehow... ie, nitrous oxide.
• Do changes which increase mechanical efficiency, like dry sump etc.   That's only going to offer incremental gains though, none of these (well short of nitrous or nitromethane - but don't do that haha) are going to get you to a legit 1000hp.

To be clear with the "out of turbo" thing, you are out of COMPRESSOR here - not turbine.  Don't get sucked into the idea of going a larger turbine housing with this, it may let a tiny bit more power happen but you're just freeing up flow for a compressor that is pretty much out of breath and for a setup which is only barely past 1:1 EMAP/IMAP.      The most obvious thing to help this combination would be a compressor which has more to offer, like going an EFR9280 (or bigger).   You're still going to reach a point where you should run better fuel at some point, but a 9280 seems like the nicest compromise to get gains without losing lots of response or anything like that.  

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

PS: @GTSBoy, matchbot is educated guesses at the best of times - pretty subjective so I'm hardly going to rip on it  My only comment, and I'm not assuming at all that you don't know this but just for yours or anyone elses interest...  adding compressor efficiency to the table base off where the associated "dot" on the compressor map makes a difference to all the calculations eventually ending up affecting turbine efficiency/emap, so is worth doing if you cbf.  Often isnt a biggy buuuuut in cases like this where you're starting to go off the comp map it can show you how much "damage" it's going to do.

[Butters]

that was an educational post @Lithium !  Good read. 

[Predator1]

On 27/05/2023 at 10:49 AM, Lithium said:

Late to the party, I feel like I've been involved in a few conversations about this setup here and elsewhere and I feel like it's a thing which is going around in circles so I'm going to keep it to bullet points addressing whoever they may be relevant to.  Correct me if any of my assumptions are wrong here.

• There are various mentions of E85 tuning on here, I'm pretty sure this is running BP98?
• 30c intake temp is NOT high
• If you are running 24psi on a responsive setup and still have under 30psi EMAP when getting near the end of the compressor flow of the turbo that is really good.  1:1 EMAP vs IMAP and below that are great to strive for, but going over that is not a problem if it's within sensible levels.  The ratio based off the logging in this case is not cause for concern at all, however...
• While the max compressor speed for an EFR9180 is 116,000krpm and you're "only" at 103,000rpm - 103,000rpm is still off the map in this case, note the red dot.    When you go under 60% compressor efficiency everything starts getting a lot harder, the compressor air temp goes up heaps and your intercooler has to work harder to get IATs in check - the turbo has to work harder to get any more flow and EMAP starts creeping up.    I'd call this setup fairly maximized without being stupid about it.
  

So yeah, at least for pump gas this is probably the right place to call it - both tuners seem to be it pretty close territory with each other and the data lines up that you're near the end.   1000hp @ engine (if you're aiming for at the wheels then it ain't happening at all) is an ambitious target on an EFR9180 on a big engine, that turbo is actually probably better suited to smaller ones that need more boost to achieve those numbers.

There are mentions of the cam timing, again - you are turbo limited at this point.   Doing things to make the setup work better psi for psi is going to make it WORSE, not better in this case as the 9180 is happier at higher boost.   If you dial the cams in a way that they are going to need less boost to make the same power, you're going to shift to a less happy part of the 9180's comp map and it's going to be even less happy than it is at the moment.  Ironically if you go the other way, you're going to potentially start struggling with octane limitations.

Things like cam spec, cam timing etc increase your engines ability to move a volume of air but it doesn't matter much if the turbo can't efficiently push dense charge at the volume you want at the boost you're trying to push.   The ways of making more power at this point in my opinion are:
 

• Use a fuel that allows you to get more power out of the amount of airflow you are moving (ethanol, methanol, nitromethane hahaha)
• Add more air to the combustion process somehow... ie, nitrous oxide.
• Do changes which increase mechanical efficiency, like dry sump etc.   That's only going to offer incremental gains though, none of these (well short of nitrous or nitromethane - but don't do that haha) are going to get you to a legit 1000hp.

To be clear with the "out of turbo" thing, you are out of COMPRESSOR here - not turbine.  Don't get sucked into the idea of going a larger turbine housing with this, it may let a tiny bit more power happen but you're just freeing up flow for a compressor that is pretty much out of breath and for a setup which is only barely past 1:1 EMAP/IMAP.      The most obvious thing to help this combination would be a compressor which has more to offer, like going an EFR9280 (or bigger).   You're still going to reach a point where you should run better fuel at some point, but a 9280 seems like the nicest compromise to get gains without losing lots of response or anything like that.  

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

PS: @GTSBoy, matchbot is educated guesses at the best of times - pretty subjective so I'm hardly going to rip on it  My only comment, and I'm not assuming at all that you don't know this but just for yours or anyone elses interest...  adding compressor efficiency to the table base off where the associated "dot" on the compressor map makes a difference to all the calculations eventually ending up affecting turbine efficiency/emap, so is worth doing if you cbf.  Often isnt a biggy buuuuut in cases like this where you're starting to go off the comp map it can show you how much "damage" it's going to do.

This is excellent Lith, thank you for your informative response. I guess you've just cemented all the claims very well. There's no real way to make more power out of my setup. I know someone else that also runs the same setup on his R(1.45) and he had similar power curves in the past. He just had his retuned recently so will see how his went.

Mine feels laggy in first, but then, its pretty long as it taps out at 100~ in first.

Do you think its worth swapping the compressor wheel to a 9280? I heard on some thread that this could be done, but I'm not sure?

If not, how much extra do you think the 9280(either same or 1.45) will give?

 

[Lithium]

54 minutes ago, Predator1 said:

Do you think its worth swapping the compressor wheel to a 9280? I heard on some thread that this could be done, but I'm not sure?

If not, how much extra do you think the 9280(either same or 1.45) will give?

Honestly you aren't giving much to work with at all, my last post was effectively a "questions that need to be answered" one and you've responded to it with questions.

If you want anyyyy kind of answer that isn't taking the piss the more of these questions you can answer the better:

- What limited it to 520kw @ hubs in the first place?  Is there timing on the table?  Was there anything else to be sorted which could result in more at that point?  What is your tuner's view on it?

- WHAT IS THE LOWEST POWER TARGET AT THE HUBS YOU'D BE HAPPY WITH?  And what octane fuel do you want to achieve that on?   There is no point worrying about response if you're going to be constantly disappointed with the power level.

- If you're hazy on the above, are you looking for a fun fast car or a big power figure?  You have to choose to a degree here.  If you're sticking to pump gas and the current setup is reasonably far short of what you want then an EFR is *not* for you - so you're going to be taking a decent response hit no matter where you go.   The more info you give the easier it will be to try and help, but I'm not agreeing or suggesting to any turbo until you fill in some blanks.

 

 

[Predator1]

3 hours ago, Lithium said:

Honestly you aren't giving much to work with at all, my last post was effectively a "questions that need to be answered" one and you've responded to it with questions.

If you want anyyyy kind of answer that isn't taking the piss the more of these questions you can answer the better:

- What limited it to 520kw @ hubs in the first place?  Is there timing on the table?  Was there anything else to be sorted which could result in more at that point?  What is your tuner's view on it?

- WHAT IS THE LOWEST POWER TARGET AT THE HUBS YOU'D BE HAPPY WITH?  And what octane fuel do you want to achieve that on?   There is no point worrying about response if you're going to be constantly disappointed with the power level.

- If you're hazy on the above, are you looking for a fun fast car or a big power figure?  You have to choose to a degree here.  If you're sticking to pump gas and the current setup is reasonably far short of what you want then an EFR is *not* for you - so you're going to be taking a decent response hit no matter where you go.   The more info you give the easier it will be to try and help, but I'm not agreeing or suggesting to any turbo until you fill in some blanks.

 

 

What questions? In your last post you mentioned assumptions. At no point did you have any questions, well, apart from what fuel, which is pump.

Actually dont worry about it. Thanks anyway.

[Lithium]

41 minutes ago, Predator1 said:

What questions? In your last post you mentioned assumptions. At no point did you have any questions, well, apart from what fuel, which is pump.

Actually dont worry about it. Thanks anyway.

I reiterated them in the comment you just responded to so it would make it easier and make it clear I wasn't just being randomly grumpy haha.  I am not trying to have a go, just trying to make it clear more info is needed from you to try and give you input which is as helpful as possible. 

 

Like if you were asking me what I'd put on your car if it was mine I'd be able to answer easily but the whole point here is trying to help you achieve what you're looking for with minimal compromise.  

Edited June 13, 2023 by Lithium