The Gravel Rally Thread

[Beer Baron]

I'd still love to hear a turbo RB in the scrub though

yeah baby. nice TD06 fed RB20 screaming through the forest would do it for me.

[FLN75S]

+1 to that.

[guesty]

Timmy, is Marcus going to have the IX rebuilt by the Hellyer Rally? are we ever gonna see the photo's from after the stack?

On topic, i considered putting the 33 on gravel after having it for sale for 2 months and only tyre kickers look at it. DMS 50mm uprights and the standard bumpers back on and it was going to be good to go. Unfortunatly it was the same time i rolled the Legacy, so i decided to rebuild that for gravel.

[warps]

I still reckon for a first dirt car something cheap, Jap, FWD and not too old is the go. like 90s at the earliest. in japan there are plenty hot parts for daihatsu charades and applause etc, same goes for mirage's and civics etc.

The Charades are OK but a bit fragile for gravel duties. Applause or Detom are the go with the "big block" 1.6 (just don't fall for the hype and pay for a Detom when it has vbery little to offer over a standard G20X 1.6 engine). Gearboxes and diffs are made from cheese, although Albins do a gearset (and CW&P I believe). Structurally they are ok, but again a bit fragile. My first rally in the (G102) charade proved it didnt like jumps as much as the old datto used to (well, duh!!). Mine was fully seam welded and comprehensive cage, which is probably all that held it together.

Good choices for FWD rally cars are 4age corollas, EG onwards Civics (b16a or better), Mivec mirages, Suzi swifts and some of the hotter pulsars. There are probably other good choices, but these seem to be doing the best in local events.

Oh, and of course the motorsport bargain of the century - an Excel series car. Don't ever under estimate them.

[PHaT MR30]

Timmy, is Marcus going to have the IX rebuilt by the Hellyer Rally? are we ever gonna see the photo's from after the stack?

On topic, i considered putting the 33 on gravel after having it for sale for 2 months and only tyre kickers look at it. DMS 50mm uprights and the standard bumpers back on and it was going to be good to go. Unfortunatly it was the same time i rolled the Legacy, so i decided to rebuild that for gravel.

Well I spoke to him yesterday and he was hoping to make it there, car has been on a jig and the chassis rails had been straightened. Bodyworks were waiting for a few more parts to arrive before they would get stuck into finishing it off. Bought all new suspension arms to put in for safetys sake, just hope nothing else has been damaged that we don't know about (diffs/box/shafts etc). So race against time!

Not to mention Marcus isn't due to get the plaster cast taken off his leg from the accident till atleast the week of the event!

[Beer Baron]

yeah excels punch above their weight. good advise on the models. I didn't even mention the corrollas or swifts (probably the 2 most popular FWD rally hatches). the pulsars are ok, and with a SR20 in them go hard, but probably a bit pricey to build and run compared to the other 1.3 and 1.6 cars.

there you go zebra, come and take away my applause. get some CDS and a welder. build your cage and you are half way there! if you can get a CW+P for it and a gearset then you'll be going places.

[jahn-15]

The Charades are OK but a bit fragile for gravel duties. Applause or Detom are the go with the "big block" 1.6 (just don't fall for the hype and pay for a Detom when it has vbery little to offer over a standard G20X 1.6 engine). Gearboxes and diffs are made from cheese, although Albins do a gearset (and CW&P I believe). Structurally they are ok, but again a bit fragile. My first rally in the (G102) charade proved it didnt like jumps as much as the old datto used to (well, duh!!). Mine was fully seam welded and comprehensive cage, which is probably all that held it together.

Good choices for FWD rally cars are 4age corollas, EG onwards Civics (b16a or better), Mivec mirages, Suzi swifts and some of the hotter pulsars. There are probably other good choices, but these seem to be doing the best in local events.

Oh, and of course the motorsport bargain of the century - an Excel series car. Don't ever under estimate them.

I took my gfs 1996 excel out rallying it was pretty fun but wrote it off.

I just bought a new daily so im going to retire my ke tx3 laser for hillclimb / rally how would something like this go? Its the fwd 1.6 n/a ive already stripped the interior only two seats left and its standerd suspension with 14" meshies.

What would i need to do to it? I just wanna have a bit of fun not be super competitive.

[MBS206]

To the guys who dirt rally RWD cars... What is the general consensus on a locked diff in a RWD? I noticed the general consensus on the FWD was a no, but is this the same for RWD?

After toying with every possible idea in my head for gravel rallying, I keep coming back to having a cage fitted to my R33 and taking it to AMSAG...

It's been lightened a bit in the front because I've shoved a dirty V8 in there (AMSAG allow what ever I want...), it's running close ratio basically thanks to the Commodore box and skyline diff (Topping 4th out at 150KM/H at 6500RPM from my calculations) the only two things I'd be missing are:

Cage,

Sump, gearbox and diff bash guards.

Maybe tweak the suspension a little bit, but it is sitting nice and high at the momen as it still has stock springs and coils.

My other question is, what are people finding suspension alignment wise that they do for the rally cars? run alot or very little camber/caster/toe?

[Dale FZ1]

What is the general consensus on a locked diff in a RWD?

Horrible things.

[warps]

Never driven with a locker in a RWD on dirt, but there are 2 camps. Some, like Dale, hate them, others love them. The general consensus is that you have to attack with them, as they'll push through corners off throttle. They can be fast if you know how to drive them, apparently.

The TX3 isn't a bad choice - there are a couple of fairly quick gravel spec TX3's around, and I'm pretty sure that LSD's and CR gear sets are available for them, but I don't know too much more than that (Mazda running gear I believe). There's a guy in a fairly stock 1.8 TX3 who runs at willowbank autocross and he usually beats most of the RWD guys.

The R33 should be fun on the dirt, and on stock springs with decent inserts the suspension will be ok for most of the smooth stuff but might struggle in rough / jumps. However, your shocks will have a much bigger impact performance than springs will. Don't expect to win too many championships, but it might surprise you. My personal opnion is that a well balanced car can be quicker overall than something much faster but not as well behaved. If you have confidence in your car you can drive it at the limit, whereas something twitchy might want to throw you off the road at the next corner, so you'll never be confident to drive at its limit. That's what my RX2 was like - lots of power and potentially very fast, but fought you every step of the way.

As far as geometry goes, couple of degrees camber and 3-4 degrees caster is pretty standard for gravel RWD's, but everyone has their preference. Again, I personally like to keep the settings a bit more neutral to maintain straight line stability, without sacrificing too much corner grip. I like to choose when the car will be sideways, and when it will be straight.

[MBS206]

Never driven with a locker in a RWD on dirt, but there are 2 camps. Some, like Dale, hate them, others love them. The general consensus is that you have to attack with them, as they'll push through corners off throttle. They can be fast if you know how to drive them, apparently.

The TX3 isn't a bad choice - there are a couple of fairly quick gravel spec TX3's around, and I'm pretty sure that LSD's and CR gear sets are available for them, but I don't know too much more than that (Mazda running gear I believe). There's a guy in a fairly stock 1.8 TX3 who runs at willowbank autocross and he usually beats most of the RWD guys.

The R33 should be fun on the dirt, and on stock springs with decent inserts the suspension will be ok for most of the smooth stuff but might struggle in rough / jumps. However, your shocks will have a much bigger impact performance than springs will. Don't expect to win too many championships, but it might surprise you. My personal opnion is that a well balanced car can be quicker overall than something much faster but not as well behaved. If you have confidence in your car you can drive it at the limit, whereas something twitchy might want to throw you off the road at the next corner, so you'll never be confident to drive at its limit. That's what my RX2 was like - lots of power and potentially very fast, but fought you every step of the way.

As far as geometry goes, couple of degrees camber and 3-4 degrees caster is pretty standard for gravel RWD's, but everyone has their preference. Again, I personally like to keep the settings a bit more neutral to maintain straight line stability, without sacrificing too much corner grip. I like to choose when the car will be sideways, and when it will be straight.

I like the sound of it just going straight off throttle... I do no like cars that try to step under brakes... I'd rather it understeer under brakes, over steer on the throttle... Suppose it'll be a try it and see...

From what you're saying with camber and caster, it sounds like the same type of setup you'd want for a hill climb. This suits my needs perfectly!

As for winning trophies... I'm into motor sport for the shits and giggles... If I wanted trophies I'd be looking at something more then AMSAG where it's open season on what you can do... LOL

[warps]

I like the sound of it just going straight off throttle... I do no like cars that try to step under brakes... I'd rather it understeer under brakes, over steer on the throttle... Suppose it'll be a try it and see...

From what you're saying with camber and caster, it sounds like the same type of setup you'd want for a hill climb. This suits my needs perfectly!

As for winning trophies... I'm into motor sport for the shits and giggles... If I wanted trophies I'd be looking at something more then AMSAG where it's open season on what you can do... LOL

Just be mindful that it will go wherever the car is pointing, and apparently it can be fairly violent. If the car already has a viscous LSD, then try that first. Otherwise, give the locker a go. As I said, some love it, some hate it.

It's good to have a car that gets light under brakes on gravel, to allow you to point the car into a corner. The rule of thumb is that if the rears lock up just before the fronts on tarmac, then the balance should be pretty close for gravel (less weight transfer). This still gives good straight line braking, but will let you steer under brakes and move the rear around to set it up for a corner. I find with good brake balance, you almost never need the handbrake.

Yeh it's more important to have a laugh than go for outright championships, so then it probably doesn't matter what you're driving as long as it's fun. I had seriously thouhgt about a R32 GTSt in PRC, but realised for the cost of building it properly, I could buy a well sorted State winning EVO and have change left over to learn to drive it. In fact, I know for a fact that the $10k Honda I bought will hose the GTSt at the gravel events I've attended so far.

[FLN75S]

To the guys who dirt rally RWD cars... What is the general consensus on a locked diff in a RWD? I noticed the general consensus on the FWD was a no, but is this the same for RWD?

After toying with every possible idea in my head for gravel rallying, I keep coming back to having a cage fitted to my R33 and taking it to AMSAG...

It's been lightened a bit in the front because I've shoved a dirty V8 in there (AMSAG allow what ever I want...), it's running close ratio basically thanks to the Commodore box and skyline diff (Topping 4th out at 150KM/H at 6500RPM from my calculations) the only two things I'd be missing are:

Cage,

Sump, gearbox and diff bash guards.

Maybe tweak the suspension a little bit, but it is sitting nice and high at the momen as it still has stock springs and coils.

My other question is, what are people finding suspension alignment wise that they do for the rally cars? run alot or very little camber/caster/toe?

I Have Driven both, my old rally car used to have a locker but it was only a little Dato so in that car it was not as bad as it still retained good turn in anyway.

In the Silvia it would be a definite no for me, i just dont think it would make the car very nice to drive, One thing to remember though in rallying is that over steer is better than under steer because that is how you set the car up for the corner so that all you need to do is get the power on and drive it out (rwd car anyway). An understeering rally car is a bad thing in my opinion and you would want a good hyd handbrake to help you get the arse around when it understeers. Most rally cars are set up with a high rear brake bias to really help with setting the car up for the corner. I am actually changing the rear brakes on my car now because i can not get enough braking in the rear. Running the 33 at Amsag is a good idea i would love to see it out there and if you set it up ok you would do better than you think.

[Dale FZ1]

I do no like cars that try to step under brakes... I'd rather it understeer under brakes, over steer on the throttle... Suppose it'll be a try it and see...

Accepted rules for what works on paved surfaces changes when you get onto gravel.

a well balanced car can be quicker overall than something much faster but not as well behaved.

I like to choose when the car will be sideways, and when it will be straight.

Rear brake bias compared to what a tarmac car likes/requires is where it's at to get balance.

It's good to have a car that gets light under brakes on gravel, to allow you to point the car into a corner.

... you steer under brakes and move the rear around to set it up for a corner. I find with good brake balance, you almost never need the handbrake.

in rallying ... over steer is better than under steer because that is how you set the car up for the corner so that all you need to do is get the power on and drive it out (rwd car anyway). An understeering rally car is a bad thing in my opinion and you would want a good hyd handbrake to help you get the arse around when it understeers. Most rally cars are set up with a high rear brake bias to really help with setting the car up for the corner.

You tend to find the car is tipped into a corner much earlier, and the front describes a way different arc than on tarmac, a totally different line because of the oversteer into the corner. Disconcerting at first and then later when you're used to it, quite natural.

Good approach to learning a bit about this would be try some khanacross events, and some rallies as a navigator too. Amazing what you can learn that way.

[Dale FZ1]

Running the 33 at Amsag is a good idea i would love to see it out there and if you set it up ok you would do better than you think.

Despite the apparent design shortcomings with weight distribution, I agree. Ignore any ideas about power, if it's got somewhere around 200rwhp (eg. pretty much stock output), decent legs at each corner and adjustable brake bias will give you what you need.

The R31 mentioned previously is a fast gravel car point to point. The Rally Qld 2011 field included Dave Gaines 240K, and Richard Galley's 240Z. Both use 6 cylinder cast iron block L series engines, both potent (and well developed + driven)and both achieved great results. And you should hear them in the bush - pretty special even when there is a gaggle of BDA Escorts running.

[Marlin]

I'm just glad Richard managed to keep it roof up for a change!

[warps]

Dale

I'm not quite sure whether you were agreeing with me or not, so I'll just set the record straight. Yes, gravel cars have high rear brake bias. This is compared to a standard road car, or tarmac race car. They generally won't have the rears locking well before the fronts on gravel, as this makes them too taily. Granted, there are lots of individual preferences, and many have found that something that feels fast (ie gets loose every time you look at the brakes) might actually be slower.

You don't want to compromise straight line braking too much though. Pulling up in a straight line from 150+ on gravel can be hairy if the rear is trying to overtake you the whole way. If it gets light and starts dancing around a bit, then you can choose when to hang it out in prepration for the corner.

I guess what I'm saying is that "rear brake bias" can mean different things to different people, and most will have their own preferences.

Gainsy's 240K is music to the ears, and a ver fast gravel car. I'd hate to think how much money he's spent developing it though. It's hardly what anyone would call a budget rally car.

[Dale FZ1]

I was/am in agreement. Looking to highlight to Matt the common view/experiences by those who've done it that a gravel car is generally setup for a different brake bias, and hence driven differently. As you indicate, a little change can make a big difference, not saying he'd want it to be attempting to swap ends, just give the option of inducing that attitude when needed.

The generally smoother roads used in Southern rallies should still allow the use of budget setup on a R32/33 ie. not make it necessary to chase high-end suspension. With a stock engine setup Matt would have similar straight line speed to a well developed (costs $$) L series. That Skyline chassis has a good brake package to work with (install a brake bias adjuster), and then it's a case of caging it, get out and run some smaller events to dip a toe in the water.

And no, the Fat Lady is not a budget rally car. Results in Qld, and some good showings down at the Alpine and Southern Mountains shows what they (car and crew) are capable of. No turbocharged RB25 will give the sounds of that thing either.

Edited May 20, 2011 by Dale FZ1

[warps]

Agree on all points.

[zebra]

Thanks for the info guys,

PS

Matt's R33 is having a dirty great big V8 shoe horned into it as we speak lol, So the weight balance will be better than a standard RB powered Jobbie.

Also noticed that the guy across the road has a few year old Lancer (the same shape as the EVO 6's but the coupe version) sitting in his driveway with a bit (a lot) of panel damage. Any idea on what one of those would be like? Im assuming its the 1.8L version.