Dry Sump System

[mr.vvl]

I have decided to go with a dry sump system on a build i am doing and i am a newbie with respects to the dry sump system.

What should be considered when purchasing the oil pump ?

3-4-5 STAGE PUMP?

STANDARD OR REVERSE ROTATION MOUNT SELECTION?

RPM speeds

Gallons per minute

etc

[bigmikespec]

Flow rate is something I have been thinking about too. I was going along the lines of matching the Nitto pump in terms of flow vs RPM.

[GTScotT]

I have decided to go with a dry sump system on a build i am doing and i am a newbie with respects to the dry sump system.

What should be considered when purchasing the oil pump ?

3-4-5 STAGE PUMP?

STANDARD OR REVERSE ROTATION MOUNT SELECTION?

RPM speeds

Gallons per minute

etc

Atleast two of these are simple enough, the standard or reverse mount implies how you will mount the thing on the block. Meaning do you need a pump that pumps when spinning clockwise or anticlockwise? Reference that with your motor and how you plan to mount it.

RPM speeds are also simple enough, its all application specific.. how are you going to drive it, how many rpm will your motor do, what sort of drive ratio will be on your belts etc. Think of it like under driving a water pump to stop it airating at high rpm

As for flow and however many stages, you will need to speak to people who have built these sort of setups before. Vivia la 10k oil setup!

[fr0st]

From what I've learnt lately (I'm building a dry sump setup now) -

• The pump is normally run at half crank speed. This is because normally can only turn up to 5000-6000 rpm.
  
• The gears in a usual pump are much larger than the stock pump, so flow is not really much of an issue. You will normally get excess flow (which causes increased pressure) and the pressure regulator in the pump will bleed it back into the scavenge stages.
  
• Stages depends on what you are trying to achieve. More stages means more even oil collection accross the entire engine and more vaccum, it also means more complexity. You can run a two stage pump if you want but you may not achieve the vaccuum or oil pickup evenness you want (because you can't scavenge the head)
  
• It doesn't matter which side of the engine the pump is mounted.... it will turn the same direction regardless (clockwise)
  

So yeh, it depends a lot on your wallet and what you're trying to do.

[GTScotT]

• It doesn't matter which side of the engine the pump is mounted.... it will turn the same direction regardless (clockwise)

What if it were backward mounted it on a transverse fwd motor?

There's a reason they offer it standard or reverse which is application specific. Where its mounted on the motor is a reasonable example to which the OP will need to get his head around to understand what hes doing for this project and future.

[fr0st]

What if it were backward mounted it on a transverse fwd motor?

I was just talking RB's. Dry sumping a FWD just seems... sad

[GTScotT]

I was just talking RB's. Dry sumping a FWD just seems... sad

Le sigh, Evo's are a transverse fwd based layout.

I'll leave it at that, not everyone has the balls to drive fwd

[simons987]

TALK STEER ARGGGHH!! Crash in a tree lol

[GTScotT]

I JUST GOT BEAT BY A HYUNDAI ARRGHH!!!!! *GTR crash into a tree*

True story bro.

[Duncan]

I'm pretty sure the reverse rotation is for the hondah motors that run anti-clockwise.

Anyway....lots of ways to f**k up a dry sump system. I think you should get someone who understands them (ie demonstrated experience) to set it up. Anything wrong and you kill the motor just as quick as with a wet sump

[Risking]

^^^^

Exactly right

[T04GTR]

there really is not much to it.. anything over a 4 stage is overkill. + hard to mount. they get pretty long.

also the pump style is important aswell.

a simple aviad spur gear pump is basic, not pull much vacume but will take alot of crap.

or a uber expencive auto-verdi roots style pump is better but higher maintenance and pull heaps of vacume.

anything over 12-15 inches of vac will ware out little ends

my fave is dailey engineering ones. robust and roots style scavenge.

you also want one with a built in scavenge manifold for easier plumbing.

bare in mind the price of hose and fittings. eg -12's and -16's range from $50-$100 per fitting for anything other than a straight.

hose -12 $40-150 a meter and -16 $50-230 a meter

our race car at work used 9 meters of -16 2m or -12 and 5m of -10. 10 -16 fittings 4 -10's and 7 -12's...... or and 3 -16 45 degree bulkheads and a -10 bulkhead.

the pump is a SMALL PERCENTAGE of the cost.

[fr0st]

bare in mind the price of hose and fittings. eg -12's and -16's range from $50-$100 per fitting for anything other than a straight.

hose -12 $40-150 a meter and -16 $50-230 a meter

As much as I want to support local business, these fittings are available at less than half the price on eBay. Considering the local stuff is likely to be made in China/Taiwan anyway the quality is exactly the same. The -12 fittings and hose for my 4 stage come to around $300, I have to get a 2 meter -16 made locally which is going to break my wallet.

Overall my dry sump will probably end up costing around $1500 inc. pump, tank, fittings and hose. The sump I'm fabricating myself. It's not bad when you consider a Nitto pump + collar is around $1500 and you still need a high capacity sump to be completely safe.

[Nee-san]

Yeah with the shit people do for lubrication piece of mind, it would be silly to go a wet sump over a dry if your doing any sort of non budget build.

[Risking]

Earls are quality and they also offer fragola as a budget option.

Using cheap fittings is asking for trouble. Same goes for hose. It will end in tears.

Make up a hose and have pirtek pressure test it. I have a pressure tester and adaptors if you are local and want to compare a cheap hose and hose end to a quality one......

If you can't afford to do it properly then seriously you

shouldn't be doing it at all.

I'm all for saving a dollar but good luck with leaky cheap fittings.

[fr0st]

Using cheap fittings is asking for trouble. Same goes for hose. It will end in tears.

There is only one line under pressure, the rest are in vaccuum. The one pressure line only needs to take 150 psi max which isn't really that high for 750psi rated -12 hose.

I'm taking plenty of pics during my build so I should be able to write it all up in a few weeks. If the engine runs for a week and dies then I'm willing to learn from my mistakes and rebuild.

[ahh 33 s2]

Matt if mine only lasts for a week I'd be in a deep depression, I'm also using cheep hose and fittings so I hold it holds together and a $1500 dry sump setup is bloody good value as u said my nitto and sump extension has well surpased that price

[rob82]

Dry sump is a waste of time unless its a track only car.

I still cant see the point of having massively excess flow rates if the motor only really requires say 50% more flow than is need to get to the pressure releif valve set point. All you will do is loose power through parasitic loses of the pump(and slightly negative sump pressure isn't going to make for the parasitic losses of the pump).

But if you do decide to waste money then make sure you scavenge the head.

[bigmikespec]

But if you do decide to waste money then make sure you scavenge the head.

If you have vacuum in the crank case why would you need to.

Post in here: http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/topic/365583-dry-sumps-and-you/

Can we get threads merged?

[fr0st]

Matt if mine only lasts for a week I'd be in a deep depression

You need a motorbike to go with the car. If at least one of them is one the road then I'm a happy man

Dry sump is a waste of time unless its a track only car.

I still cant see the point of having massively excess flow rates if the motor only really requires say 50% more flow than is need to get to the pressure releif valve set point. All you will do is loose power through parasitic loses of the pump(and slightly negative sump pressure isn't going to make for the parasitic losses of the pump).

But if you do decide to waste money then make sure you scavenge the head.

Well I had 3 options -

Stock/N1 oil pump

Nitto oil pump + extended sump

Dry Sump

The stock and N1 pump sucks. It's pot luck whether they live 10+ years or crack within 2 weeks, I didn't want to risk forged rods and pistons on a $400 oil pump.

The dry sump has every advantage over the Nitto + extended sump. It costs less, it's a more stable oil supply, I can rev higher and I get to learn about designing and fabricating a dry sump. Seemed like an easy decision for me. I don't see how it could be a waste of time, once it's setup it's done. Just stick to regular belt and oil changes it should look after itself and the motor.

In a decent 4 stage setup the sump pressure is a fair bit lower than slightly negative. It's enough to eliminate the head -> sump oil flow issues and the majority of the vapour trail behind the crank. General opinion (from what I've read) is that dry sumped cars rev easier and have better fuel economy due to the lower windage losses. I haven't experienced this first hand as this is my first dry sumped car but I'm looking forward to finding out how the engine feels.