Dry Sumps And You.......

[Risking]

Email received.

I'm currently waiting for more of these to be machined. The first batch sold in a week with several places buying several pairs.

[TwinTurboCelica]

Any idea on timeframe? Many thanks.

[Angus Smart]

Brad have you still got my headlight intake ?

[Risking]

Hey mate I sure do.

It's still In the same place on the shelf in my garage.

Time frame for the half moons I don't know at this stage.

They are machined by a mate when his CNC machines are slow.

I need some in the next week so I'd hope his done them by then.

[GT-RZ]

Thanks for the quick email reply brad, once i have this system installed i am wondering about vents/ regulating pressure:

What is the reason behind creating vacuum in the crankcase excluding gained HP... I can't see how it would benefit the scavenging inlets? The greater the vacuum (better sealed the block) the harder the pump would have to work to pull 'x' amount of flow through it's gears.... (think about sucking water through a straw and then gradually plugging up the end... then it gets to a point where you give up sucking or the plug fails.... half moons seems to often be the weakest link.)

I think the best way would be to set up a pressure relief valve (placed on the engine cam covers for a nice velocity stream to the scavengers) adjusted for optimum engine HP ('x'hg) and then accomidate the engines seals to deal with such negative pressure... (most engine seals are lipped to deal with positive pressure?) I personally cant see any advanatge on the pumps behalf to sealing the crankcase (unless of course your blow-by was creating the relative amount of positive pressure...)

Also given the design of the pumps lets say we have 3 scavenging chambers and one returning then obviously this is how vacuum is created and we use it as we wish but is there a vent located on the return oil tank? Or do the pumps accomidate a built in relief???

Sorry but i'm just trying to get my head around these systems... I'm unsure if you already do this but i can possibly also see a big advantage in reducing the diamater of the scavenger line right where it plumbs in to the sump to create a little bit more intake velocity (not necissary when submerged in oil like a wetsump but when there is air and oil? Or maybe too much velocity is a bad idea as the oil could froth up?)

I know your systems are proven but somtimes i have to understand the magic before i'll believe the trick....

[Risking]

I'll try and answer all the questions

Vacuum in the crankcase has very little to do with the overall dry sump setup, it's more of a by product that we utilize because it's there.

A dry sump does not help one little bit with the rb26's head to sump return issue if the engine is not sealed. However when you seal the head and create vacuum the problem is eliminated as gravity is no longer a concern. Nor is air having to get back up into the head from the crankcase.

Negative pressure also improves windage obviously and the parasitic loss of oil friction on the crankshaft.

There is a fine line to setting the vacuum levels. Too much and you starve the little ends and destroy gudgeon pins. To little and your robbing yourself. I've seen engines running way to much vacuum as they make more hp but they also destroy themselves after a day. So Whilst your theory about adjusting to Maximise hp is common it's also a big trap for inexperienced and does cost engines.

The pumps are commonly designed with internal scavenging manifolds. So the 3 scavenging chambers are internally linked after the gear sets to return to the tank.

Pumps all usually have an internal pressure relife valve.

Scavenge lines are usually smaller than the return port and usually pumps have a scavenge port designed into them as well.

We are not concerned with frothy oil in the sump or the pump. Frothy oil actually promotes vacuum, tank design and well designed baffling in the tank is where the oil is "defrothed" before being sent back to the pump

The tank is just as important as the sump and pump unless your running an independent oil separator. Tanks are always vented.

Thanks for the quick email reply brad, once i have this system installed i am wondering about vents/ regulating pressure:

What is the reason behind creating vacuum in the crankcase excluding gained HP... I can't see how it would benefit the scavenging inlets? The greater the vacuum (better sealed the block) the harder the pump would have to work to pull 'x' amount of flow through it's gears.... (think about sucking water through a straw and then gradually plugging up the end... then it gets to a point where you give up sucking or the plug fails.... half moons seems to often be the weakest link.)

I think the best way would be to set up a pressure relief valve (placed on the engine cam covers for a nice velocity stream to the scavengers) adjusted for optimum engine HP ('x'hg) and then accomidate the engines seals to deal with such negative pressure... (most engine seals are lipped to deal with positive pressure?) I personally cant see any advanatge on the pumps behalf to sealing the crankcase (unless of course your blow-by was creating the relative amount of positive pressure...)

Also given the design of the pumps lets say we have 3 scavenging chambers and one returning then obviously this is how vacuum is created and we use it as we wish but is there a vent located on the return oil tank? Or do the pumps accomidate a built in relief???

Sorry but i'm just trying to get my head around these systems... I'm unsure if you already do this but i can possibly also see a big advantage in reducing the diamater of the scavenger line right where it plumbs in to the sump to create a little bit more intake velocity (not necissary when submerged in oil like a wetsump but when there is air and oil? Or maybe too much velocity is a bad idea as the oil could froth up?)

I know your systems are proven but somtimes i have to understand the magic before i'll believe the trick....

[9krpm]

Brad, can you let me know when you restock the "half moons" ?

Thanks

[TwinTurboCelica]

Have you got the half moons in stock now?

[Risking]

Recently ive been working with ross at ross balancers. Trying to keep up with the machine work for my kits was too hard, So now Ross does that side and I can take care of the fabrication and installation.

Brackets can be done to suit drivers side or passengers side mounting.

The brackets and pumps will work with a ross balancer or the Ati 1000Hp. We did an installation just last week using the whole kit and the customers existing Ati balancer.

Ive done 3 cars in the last 4 weeks all with 4 stage dry sump setups. Now the revolutionary part of these conversions is a power steering pump thats being driven from the same HTD belt as the oil pump.

The pump needs to be an R33 GSTS pump and bracket however we are working on drive kits for all the common pumps. Its driven at half engine speed and works perfectly at high RPM. From one vehciles motec data logging we've also seen a 20% drop in power steering fluid temperature just by running at half speed.

Also now available is a tank mounting bracket thats been specifically designed to mount a peterson/paterson/profabrication tank into the boot of the Skyline.

These make tank installation very simple

I can now supply firewall bulkhead sections that directly fit over the original heater hose locations. for the road rego'ed vehicles with heater boxes installed we have a bulk head plate to run the lines under the car as well.

Kits are available with or without the powersteering addition. Im not selling individual components though.

With the kits I can also supply every hose and fitting required to line up the job at a price I can garrantee will not be matched by anyone. Using earls Pro lite hose and swivel seal fittings.

Unfortunatly the half moon batch I recevied contained 8 pairs which have already been allocated to kits ive sold or am installing in the next few weeks.

If I end up with spares ill put them up for sale

Tank Bracket

Fire wall bulkheads and rear fire wall grommets

And a photo of the Ross trigger setup which im using on all of my serious circuit GTR's now

[Roy]

Mint work...with just about every GTR owner seemingly turning their back on club spec cars and going serious with aero and the whole "time attack" scene I imagine a load more cars are going dry sump route....lol if any customers are turfing their nitto, tomie etc oil pump I have a good home for one

[Risking]

Thanks Troy.

There is plenty of GTR's that I've done which are competing at wtac, most of them also do regular circuit racing throughout the year so they are normal looking cars though.

The BPG GTR's both have Nice setups now as does one of the r34 GTR's that only got a spot last week.

The amount of 9L sumps and oil pumps I've got sitting on the shelf now is getting out of control.

I actually cut up 2 9L sumps last week just so I could fill out dry sump orders.

We are trying to supply these kits at the cheapest possible cost. By buying bulk and using some brand loyalty I've been able to get the price to an affordable position.

Also doing really nice single stage external pump kits now using the same balancer and aviad pumps.

[JAB]

Have you set up any of the aviaid pumps with the power steering pump on the back yet?

[Risking]

Yeah I have used aviads, Dailey and morosso pumps with power steering and fuel pump stages on various engines

Problem with the RB is to pull any decent vacuum you need to use the wider scavenging stages and the pump becomes fairly long.

There physically isn't enough room at the end of the pump before the engine mount to fit the additional pressure stage.

[JAB]

was looking at 1 stage wet sump with power steering for sr20

ross are making some really good stuff

[Risking]

I have something coming out in the next week or so which is perfect for those who can't afford a full on dry sump setup but are looking to get away from the flat drive oil pump.

It's more of a cure than a wet sump single stage which can still have surge issues. But it's not anywhere near as expensive as a dry sump conversion.

As far as I'm aware this hasn't been done before.

[EdGTR]

Just a couple of smaller questions that came up when we dry sumped a sr20 for a datsun 1600 race car.

With a tank in the boot do you have any issues with the feed hose to the pump collapsing?

Also in regards to sealing the bottom end do you use special seals or reverse their fitting?

We are not running any crankcase vacuum at the moment as we are just running a filtered breather fitting in the rocker cover.

Apart from the hp gain advantage from the vacuum in the crankcase are there any other negative affects of setting it up like this?

Thanks

[Risking]

Feed hose back to the tank needs to be a vacuum capable hose as its under suction.

I have seen poorly designed systems using the wrong hose that can be sucked closed.

Same goes for scavenging hoses from sump to pump.

Crankcase vacuum assists with oil scavenging from head to sump.

We run modified rocker cover gaskets and use genuine crank seals which have never been a problem.

[EdGTR]

Thanks just a few things to think about.

The system works ok at the moment but we have been told a few different things from a number of people and are just trying to work out what to try to improve the system with out doing any damage. Being our first dry sump it has been a bit of a learning curve.

[Tektrader69]

Brad, whats the benefit behind dumping the CAS and using the Ross Crank pickup?

I already have Ross balancer and dry sump drive. But could send it back to have the spline fitted for the pickup if I have to.

[Risking]

Signal consistency at high rpm is the Benifit.

Every tuner that's done one with these triggers has complimented how well the signal holds on at high Rpm.

I've got alot of racepak data from various dry sump converted cars now.

The best one I'll put up a screen shot of. R34 GTR that had a high octane sump, baffles, returns, tomei pump etc etc.

Wakefield park it would drop as low as 5psi and overlaying g force vs oil pressure clearly shows oil surge.

Same car after the conversion it holds 65-70psi no matter what the g forces do.