E85/98 Flex-Fuel Mission Complete! Thanks To Chequered Tuning!

[Beer Baron]

well glad to see the midori tune was not too bad. the car certainly ran nicely with it but I know when hermey ran it in the dyno he did think timing was a bit aggressive, not to the point of being dangerous though and not knocking.

I need a steer I think...

[sh@un]

Great reading about this sort of stuff. Powerful flex-fuel engines aren't just to be found in new Bentleys in Oz anymore. Hehe

Trent- Would it be feasible to do the same thing with the car running on E10 (Shell/Caltex/7-11 91 blend) in econo-mode, and E85 for power, without sacrificing much/any potential top-end if you stick in a near full tank of the latter?

[STATUS]

Great reading about this sort of stuff. Powerful flex-fuel engines aren't just to be found in new Bentleys in Oz anymore. Hehe

Trent- Would it be feasible to do the same thing with the car running on E10 (Shell/Caltex/7-11 91 blend) in econo-mode, and E85 for power, without sacrificing much/any potential top-end if you stick in a near full tank of the latter?

should be no issue.

[sh@un]

swoit

[ARTZ]

hmmm..look what I found

http://www.e85performance.net/forums/showthread.php?t=997

nearly 12 months, not one reply and these guys have nutted it already

[Madaz]

great read guy's

that forum would be a yank forum they wont help jap crap out so it can beat them at their own game

[Kinks]

Impressive... great work guys, given the uncertain nature of even finding 98RON around sometimes (and E85 is much worse!), having flex fuel capability is a massive plus for anyone going down the E85 route.

[GUN-808]

Thought id dig this up and post a relevant reply..

I was not the 1 to email them but was sent this by a friend..

my testing kit has seen 74-75% from caltex fuel i have purchased from Wrongary Caltex on the Gold Coast..

the ELF e85 i had previously came in at 91-92% and i believe the sucrogen CSR comes in at 92-93%...

I've been told that ANDRA can only test for E85 but can't distinguish between the brands etc (yet).

.......................

I emailed Caltex regarding bio e flex availabilty of a all year availability of 85% mix (for drag racing), their response:

Thank you for writing to Caltex. I understand your concerns and recognise that drag racing needs consistency. It's worth bearing in mind however that Bio E-Flex was specifically designed for use in original factory-made flex-fuel vehicles (fitted with flex-fuel sensors that can adjust to the level of ethanol) - hence the discord in specs to your racing requirements.

Having said all that, Bio E-Flex has been at 70% ethanol since it launched for NSW, Vic & SA. Qld has been at 73%. There has not been a change since the launch of the product.

It was a deliberate choice to use the winter blend at that time as we knew that sales would be extremely low at all sites. Hence there was a risk that some of the summer blend would still be in the tanks from the summer rolling into the winter.

It's also our first foray into the product which means that we began by making a few conservative decisions: considering this is the first relatively large-scale rollout of the product in Australia, we wanted to ensure that there were absolutely no issues with it that could possibly tarnish its reputation in the marketplace. Basically we wanted to separate it from the E10 stigma, and some regular motorists' opinion on ethanol blended fuel.

We wanted to make sure that every flex-fuel vehicle that rolled in there had no start-up or vapour pressure issues, and demonstrate that ethanol blended fuels work beautifully in engines designed to use it.

However, this does mean that cars that have been modified and tuned specifically to use E85, and do not have a flex-fuel sensor have to be very careful about measuring the ethanol content in Bio E-Flex, as you have been. We will only change the ethanol content twice a year at most.

At this stage we haven't changed the % yet as we began with the winter blend for the reasons stated above. As we grow our understanding of the fuel, and the relative sales, we should be able to better balance ethanol content with vapour pressure requirements of the flex-fuel vehicles. Please note that factory made flex-fuel vehicles cannot be tuned to use 85% ethanol in winter due to legislated tuning requirements (to minimise vehicle emissions).

So in answer to your question, it is likely that we will increase the ethanol content in summer, however I cannot guarantee that it will be 85% ethanol.

Some states including NSW and Qld, are subject to legislation that limits the maximum vapour pressure in petrol. Hence our refineries change the volatility of our petrol every year to meet these requirements. This directly impacts E-Flex, because it is blended with this petrol. If the volatility of the petrol is high, then we can use more ethanol. If it is lowered, in order to meet the legislation, then we may only be able to put in 70-75% ethanol. So as you can see, our decisions were driven by a number of factors: operability, legislative and our commitment to the success of renewable fuels in Australia.

[STATUS]

Thought id dig this up and post a relevant reply..

I was not the 1 to email them but was sent this by a friend..

my testing kit has seen 74-75% from caltex fuel i have purchased from Wrongary Caltex on the Gold Coast..

the ELF e85 i had previously came in at 91-92% and i believe the sucrogen CSR comes in at 92-93%...

I've been told that ANDRA can only test for E85 but can't distinguish between the brands etc (yet).

.......................

I emailed Caltex regarding bio e flex availabilty of a all year availability of 85% mix (for drag racing), their response:

Thank you for writing to Caltex. I understand your concerns and recognise that drag racing needs consistency. It's worth bearing in mind however that Bio E-Flex was specifically designed for use in original factory-made flex-fuel vehicles (fitted with flex-fuel sensors that can adjust to the level of ethanol) - hence the discord in specs to your racing requirements.

Having said all that, Bio E-Flex has been at 70% ethanol since it launched for NSW, Vic & SA. Qld has been at 73%. There has not been a change since the launch of the product.

It was a deliberate choice to use the winter blend at that time as we knew that sales would be extremely low at all sites. Hence there was a risk that some of the summer blend would still be in the tanks from the summer rolling into the winter.

It's also our first foray into the product which means that we began by making a few conservative decisions: considering this is the first relatively large-scale rollout of the product in Australia, we wanted to ensure that there were absolutely no issues with it that could possibly tarnish its reputation in the marketplace. Basically we wanted to separate it from the E10 stigma, and some regular motorists' opinion on ethanol blended fuel.

We wanted to make sure that every flex-fuel vehicle that rolled in there had no start-up or vapour pressure issues, and demonstrate that ethanol blended fuels work beautifully in engines designed to use it.

However, this does mean that cars that have been modified and tuned specifically to use E85, and do not have a flex-fuel sensor have to be very careful about measuring the ethanol content in Bio E-Flex, as you have been. We will only change the ethanol content twice a year at most.

At this stage we haven't changed the % yet as we began with the winter blend for the reasons stated above. As we grow our understanding of the fuel, and the relative sales, we should be able to better balance ethanol content with vapour pressure requirements of the flex-fuel vehicles. Please note that factory made flex-fuel vehicles cannot be tuned to use 85% ethanol in winter due to legislated tuning requirements (to minimise vehicle emissions).

So in answer to your question, it is likely that we will increase the ethanol content in summer, however I cannot guarantee that it will be 85% ethanol.

Some states including NSW and Qld, are subject to legislation that limits the maximum vapour pressure in petrol. Hence our refineries change the volatility of our petrol every year to meet these requirements. This directly impacts E-Flex, because it is blended with this petrol. If the volatility of the petrol is high, then we can use more ethanol. If it is lowered, in order to meet the legislation, then we may only be able to put in 70-75% ethanol. So as you can see, our decisions were driven by a number of factors: operability, legislative and our commitment to the success of renewable fuels in Australia.

Interesting read re the emissions requirements for holden.

wonder why the last few samples ive had from caltex read on average 63-66% even my test tube test was below 70% (could not be any more accurate though as my tester only went down to 70% )

[SS8_Gohan]

wow... what an amazingly detailed response from a company rep! Obviously well across the product.

Thanks for the post, very interesting!! Don't let the Sucrogen rep know that his fuel was not bang on E85, or you'll start WWIII douche...

The vapour pressure one is interesting too... i wonder if that's why it's a bit trickier to get cold start sorted compared to 98.

I'm still reading mid60's with E-Flex down here, and that's been both Glen Waverley and Springvale now. And i would think my Seimens sensor is fairly accurate compared to the test tube kits.

The Powerplus E85 we used as the high baseline hovered between E83-E86, but was fairly settled on E84 - which is what you would want if you spend $2.20 or whatever a litre.

Thinking of doing an E100 tune when Manildra gets back online So when you get the inevitable E90+ from Fueltown or United, all will be good.

[Beer Baron]

great reply from caltex. thank god they had the decency to show you some respect and give you a detailed and informed answer and not just assume you're an idiot and could not handle any kind of technical explanation. very encouraging that even though they are not going to provide what you wanted that they bothered to give you a proper explanation of the legislative and market pressures that are driving their decisions and it all sounds pretty reasonable to me.

so the question is how long before we see e-flex at shell, BP and mobil???? not long is my guess.

[Madaz]

isn't there truth in this statement "tune for worse case scenario"

so I'm guessing if you tune on the highest % ethanol you an find say 90% if you get a lower blend it will only richen up

if you tune for 70% ethanol and you put 90% in you engine will lean out

[Rolls]

So is this a matter of you doing say 3 tunes, E85, E50, and plain 91 (being as they mix with 91 not 98) and the link then interpolates between them? Or does it have an intermediate fuel and ignition trim table?

How much tweaking was required by trent to get the intermediate tables or interpolation settings correct? Eg how many dyno hours on specifically this part? Just curious how feasible it is, or if it is like requesting a dyno shop to do 10 tunes for you and the cost of tuning makes it far too expensive.

Thanks

[ARTZ]

so the question is how long before we see e-flex at shell, BP and mobil???? not long is my guess.

yeah its a big pity caltex didnt get the mobil buyout for they may have installed alot more eflex pumps when they revamped all the stores..instead now we have stupid 7_11s selling nothing but more junkfood

[Birds]

Impressive response from Caltex. Unusually honest insight into their actions - sounded more like an internal report to management than a consumer response.

When the whole world has evolved into a sesspool of lies and marketing bullshit to cover up company actions...tis the honesty that will shine through as a refreshing innovation...the novelty of which, will ironically provide the best consumer distraction for a marketing team.

[Madaz]

shells plans as of 23/02/2011 first my question to them and their reply but they may think again if all of us send in similar emails

Hello,

I currently use V-power and would like to know if shell will be producing a quality cheap E85 fuel that i 85% ethanol all year round unlike caltex's attempt at an ethanol blended fuel

i currently hold the position of events coordinator on a car club called Skylines Australia South Australia chapter a lot of us are preparing are cars to run E85 but currently can only get it from scotcher's race fuels or liberty

it would be nice for shell Australia to jump on board with this cleaner alternative

if hearing from my peers about their thoughts on this i would be more than happy to put up a topic on the website Skylines Australia asking for people to contact you like i have

thank you for reading and i look forward to your response

Steve Rosskogler

Their response

Dear Steve,

Thanks for your email about E85. At this point in time the number of vehicles compatible with an E85 fuel blend is minimal, and this is the biggest influence on our fuels strategy. New flex-fuel vehicles will be able to use a range of petrols, including regular unleaded and fuels blended with ethanol up to 85%.

Shell does not currently sell an E85 blend but we are always monitoring changes in the Australian vehicle fleet to adopt more sustainable fuels. That said, ethanol does face supply constraints (particularly in light of the recent Qld floods) and security of supply is our number one priority.

That said, we remain committed to making Shell V-Power the best premium fuel in Australia, and hope that you and the Skyline community remain loyal V-Power customers!

Thanks again for getting in contact, apologies for the delay in coming back to you.

Kind regards,

Jill

[SS8_Gohan]

this is from the other week...

knew she had a 400 in her

9sec ramp i believe

And the 400 run vid... toasty

[Rolls]

What turbo setup are you running?

[SS8_Gohan]

twin HKS 2530

[Madaz]

hahaha love the bbq