What to do with R32 GTST RB20DET to get it into the low 12s in the 1/4 mile (400m)

[RBsileighty]

So I was debating weither to get a 180SX w/CA18DET or a R32 GTST w/RB20DET

Now I have set performance goals for the cars.

For the engine, I want it to get the car in the 1/4 mile (400m) in the low 12s high 11 range.

Although this will NOT be a drag car, it'll be more of a daily driver with autox focus.  but I still want it to beable to fly down the 1/4 mile

I had to go back to page one to see what the original question was...

Well bud, I personally have a RB20 powered S13 (you think your all stuck with crappy motors... try our KA24E(DE) motors Nissan shafted us with). Mine is in the build stage (RB S13 #2 for me... see my sig), but my buddies RB20 S14 is a beautiful drive. The cool thing about the two motors you are looking at are their low buy-in price. From the looks of it... I'd say to get the output req for what you want to do they might be about the same price in the end. I am not sure, so some CA builders might need to give their accounts, but mine is on its way to that power mark and should come in at about $5000 USD when it gets there (convert at www.xe.com), including the price of the car. Each motor has its own advantages, be it SR, RB or CA... it comes down to what you are looking for out of the motor and your budget.

With the same amount of money into each motor, I'd imagine you would have a more powerful RB or CA due to their lower initial cost. Engineering aside, even the low tech redtop (compared to its later variants) clips for SR's cost 500-800 more than a RB clip and 1000+ more than the CA clips. Depending on what your car started out with, I'm sure that could help you in your decision. With $500-1000 USD into a RB or CA... I'd imagine both would be a fair step ahead of a stock SR motor. No one can really bring up difficulties in the RB install... it is just as straight forward as a SR swap. I am more than willing to help someone out if they want to save a few bucks (most likely email, but if you want to pay for a plane ticket to AU and house me for a bit I don't mind... the install would be no charge minus parts needed!).

Hopefully this helps you out bud.

[StraightSix]

How did the SR enter this discussion anyway? The situation here in Canada is that we can import 15 year old cars and that is what Daemos and I are looking at doing . . . not wanting to swap anything into anything else, just comparing the CA powered 180SX to the RB20 powered R32 . . .

Cheers

J

[neil_se]

When it come to issues like this i always say to myself, if you can have an argument this long about it, then there really isn't that bigger difference to begin with since neither option is a clear winner. Makes sense in my head anyway.

[RBsileighty]

I would still say do a swap in a local 240sx (didn't notice you were in Canada)...

First off for your goals a R32 is heavy... The R32 GTS-T weighs in @ 1320kg curb and the CA powered 180sx comes in at 1120kg curb. I would think that you could almost put the RB20 in the trunk of a CA powered 180sx and still come in at about the same weight as an R32.

It comes down to what you want:

- If you want originality in Canada - go with the R32... if you're going through the trouble... why not a GTR?

- If you want a RHD turbo'd S13... go with the 180sx

- If you still want originality and power... but not at the price of buying, registering, and

shipping a 180sx or R32 - 240sx w/ a RB20DET

I would imagine that after aquireing a R32 or 180sx, you would almost be at your goal with a RB20 or CA powered 240sx (since S13's are so cheap here).

[StraightSix]

S13s are quite a bit more $ here than in the US though. Can't find a decent one for less than $5k. An R32 or a 180SX would be no more expensive than an RB swapped 240SX, probably a bit less actually.

Cheers

Jason

[RBsileighty]

You could buy one here in the US and then drive it over... would save at least 1000USD in shipping. I picked up my 240 for 1700USD (seats in carpet are the only "issues" in its quality). How much have you been quoted for a 32 or a 180?

[StraightSix]

Can't import them from the US because of your wonky motorized seatbelts (except '89 versions). Import R32 GTS-t (first ones legal in two months) or 180SX go for anywhere from $6k to $10k depending on a lot of different things. (That's with shipping, taxes, etc.)

[MKEWAY]

Go for the CA18, best motors, for what they are they are very strong, and rev their lil tities off, throw on something like a GT28, FMC, computer, and plenty of fuel and you'll be making decent power, better still put it ina datto

[Sydneykid]

Hi guys, this thread moved a little away from the originator's intended purpose, I apologise for contributing to this. But when I read statements that say SR20's produce more torque than RB20's due to their longer stroke (or some other hidden advantage), it inflames my "wrong answer" gland and I have to correct it. I believe, and have stated my case, that any additional torque is due to Nissan's tuning choices not some inbuilt advantage. Somehow I managed to allow myself to be drawn into a challenge on who knows more about SR's with omg and I apologise for that as well. I don't mind a respectful discussion arguing the points. But when it degenerates into a challenge to support points of view with facts, that's when I get a little pushy as my life revolves around turning facts (data) into information on how to make cars go faster.

So this is my last post on SR vs RB on this thread, I won't be goaded into it any more.

OK omg, I had time last night (work comes first) to dig out the costs on the last SR20 we did, the object of which was to make it safe to 9,000 rpm, regularly. This is the same rpm as our RB20 (and any CA) does with these components standard ie; this is a list of the stuff we did to an SR20 so it could safely rev to what an RB/CA does with standard components.

Del West titanium valves $82 each

Iskenderian valve springs $28 each

In house fabricated titanium retainers $9 each

In house fabricated steel collets $6 pair

In house fabricated titanium rockers $28 each

Jun solid lifter pedestal conversion $620 set

Total Parts $2,908

Compare this to a Crower forged crank for CA18 with 88 mm stroke (AKA CA20) at $1,870. When you use this crank with 85 mm pistons (2mm oversize) you end up at 1998 cc's. A solid lifter conversion for the CA (to make things equal with the solids in the SR) is $245.

I can hear omg, now "you used the most expensive stuff just to support your argument" + "you don't need titanium valves, stainless would have been OK" + "nothing wrong with the standard stuff, just the solids would have been enough" etc etc

For me the issue is RB's and CA's have cam on bucket design and every engine builder in the world will tell you that that results in less valve train inertia than an SR with rockers. Less valve train inertia means you have to do less work to make the engine rev more. This extra work costs money in parts and labour to overcome or eliminate. If you don't have it (the extra weight) in the first place you don't have to do anything. So all we are doing with the above is trying to get the SR20 valve train component weight to the same level as the RB/CA valve train component weight. Simplistically when the weight is the same, the inertia is the same and therefore the same amount of valve train integrity will exist.

Lastly, people quote the longer stroke of an SR20 as being an advantage over an RB20 as the reason why it makes more torque. But (in my opinion) the relatively poor rod length/stroke ratio of an SR20 cancels this out. Then I hear that SR20 valves are bigger than RB20's that's why they make more power. But an SR20 has 16 and a RB has 24, do the numbers, in fact RB20's have move valve to bore area than a SR20. My belief is that any reason SR20's make more torque or power than RB20's is purely the tuners choice, either Nissan, when they are standard, or you ,when you modify them.

So omg you are absolutely right, I do have a hidden agenda, killing urban myths.

[Cubes]

Also on a note of comparing oranges and apples.

The RB20/CA's don't have VCT. The S14+ SR's do.

http://www.tomei-p.co.jp/_2003web-catalogu...haft-specs.html

[omg]

"I don't mind a respectful discussion arguing the points. But when it degenerates into a challenge to support points of view with facts, that's when I get a little pushy as my life revolves around turning facts (data) into information on how to make cars go faster. "

Neither do I, however when you make a series of incorrect and inflammatory remarks you should expect to be called on them. If you don't want someone to stand up and say "hey, thats not correct, back that up" then I suggest you are a little more careful with what you say. Hell, if you had've simply admitted that you exagrerated things somewhat the thread would've taken a very different course.

"I can hear omg, now "you used the most expensive stuff just to support your argument" + "you don't need titanium valves, stainless would have been OK" + "nothing wrong with the standard stuff, just the solids would have been enough" etc etc"

Nah, for 9000rpm I'd be doing similar stuff. I'd be using parts like the Tomei solid pivots rather than Jun (half the price) though. 9000rpm certainly isn't needed for any of the applications that have been discussed in this thread but again, I'll even let that one slide. What you have clearly failed to do however is fix any "inherrant problems". You've fixed a bunch of stuff which needs to be changed in any valvetrain being built for high revs and comparing this with the CA and RB the only part you wouldn't need on them is the rocker arms. The really funny thing is, there are a couple more changes I'd be making (for all three engines btw), I'm quite surprised you didn't include those

"Compare this to a Crower forged crank for CA18 with 88 mm stroke (AKA CA20) at $1,870. When you use this crank with 85 mm pistons (2mm oversize) you end up at 1998 cc's. A solid lifter conversion for the CA (to make things equal with the solids in the SR) is $245"

I can't see any good reason to include the new buckets in the price here as the CA still wouldn't rev anywhere near the SR speced above and, we're talking straight stroker kit here. I would be inclined to include rods as well as your unpriced pistons in the stroker kit though, I'd probably be getting things like piston rings, pins, bearings etc as well. Hmm, how do those 2mm oversive pistons go fitting into the standard bore? Would there be a bit of engineering work involved? Or were you just hoping that no-one here actually knows how an internal combustion engine is built? What does irk me about your behaviour is that you've been consistantly deceptive in all your replies then put on the poor me I'm being nice and the nasty SR guy is rude routine. Your deception is at a point where it's way beyond simple mistakes, you're simply a barefaced liar and you bloody well know it.

I won't get into the rest of the stuff as that strays into comparing SR's with the RB, something I'm not going to get into, particularly on a skyline forum and particularly with someone like you. You've been caught out lying but in the same breath as putting on you're "I'm a nice guy act" you add a new chapter to your lies. Maybe in you quest to save the world from urban myths you could start with what parts are the bare minimum for a stroker kit.

[TTT]

just something that I wanted to ask for my own benefit..

S13 180sx SR20det = 275NM @ 4000rpm (according to autospeed) and 150kw @ 6000rpm

R32 gtst rb20det = 263NM @ 3200rpm (according to autospeed) and 158kw @ 6200rpm

I thought that the JAP spec sr would be better matched with the RB (as it is jap only)

both at 10psi boost.

both have 8.5:1 comp ratio..

my question is, sure the SR displays more torque, but it is at 800rpm later.

and the S14 sr20det says 265nm @ 4800rpm. that is 2nm more than the RB but at 1600rpm later..

Maybe autospeed has incorrect facts (wouldn't be the first time) but doesn't the fact that the max torque is higher in the rev range sort of cancel it's advantage out and make both engines pretty much even?

Also, does anyone know the weight of a complete RB20det and SR20det?

[Roy]

Hi roy, Nitto 555's are popular and considered by many to be the leader in drag radial tyres. Munroe and Wilson use them, sorry but I don't know what Mario uses.  The Croydon boys use Mickey Thopmson ET-Street tyres.  They aren't radials though, so not eligible if you want to get into the HPI Drag Challenge.

The ultimate drag tyre, well my favourite drag car uses Goodyear drag slicks.

Looking for something not too expensive, and the prices i haev seen Nittos being sold for basically rules them out, are they any good for spirited driving - arent the side wall for straight line tractio, not corners? That said are the BF Goodrich radials the same story?

How correct is my thinking. street tyres suck for drags, Type R circuit tyres still good for street, great for circuit and marked impreovement over street rubber for drags. The Drag radials, fine on street, suck on circuit and are great for drags.

So i suppose the question is if im doing 12.3s on the 1/4 with Type R rubber, will a drag radial alone let me creep into the 11s with the same susp, hp and weight???

[Cubes]

Please bugger off omg.

You type so much to say so little.

[Roy]

Please bugger off omg.

 

You type so much to say so little.

:slap: Manners Joel

Hows this...SR20s use Rocker arms??? Well at least they dont use pushrods

Technically ones better then the other, it may not mean too much for most of our cars, but everyone throws mud at Gen IIIs for what is technically a less then ideal way of doing things, so i cant see why SR20 owners get so upset when a design defeciency is pointed out. Doesnt mean they dont perform well, just means they skin the same cat a different way.

[Cubes]

skin the same cat a different way.

lol..

Yer I got sick of omg basically repeating his self.

[RBsileighty]

Well, I've definitely had enough of it. I thought it was funny that when I saw this on a post in a UK 200sx forum yesterday:

A guy put a RB25DET (actually converted it to TT http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&...20&pagenumber=1) into his S13, and when he was building up the motor he said the following, "...the RB is amazingly similar in construction and design to the CA. It really does look like a 6-pot CA....or is the CA a 4-pot RB ?"

This would explain why the CA is in my R32 RB FSM. With this, I also saw somewhere else that the reason they replaced the CA with the SR was b/c the CA was to expensive to produce due to its advanced technology. Being an engineer for Bosch and seeing when model changes occur, typically you will not follow through with a design/model change unless it is significantly less expensive to produce.

Who's not to say you can't produce more power (stock) with less money... the LS1 out of a Vette puts out more power than a M62 4.4L out of a BMW (5,7,8 series), and I'm sure it cost less to produce. If you told me the tech in the LS1 was better than the M62... well, I would hope you are comfortable in your padded wall room.

Unlike that v8 example, you can pick up a used CA for almost nothing vs. (as I said before... and it was overlooked) the Redtop SR costing about 3 times as much. So with equal money put into both motors... you'd have one tough CA vs. a lagging stock redtop. Granted I'm more into the tech side, which is why I really like the CA's and RB20 and 26 (not a huge fan of the 25).

OK... so now we continue on topic... or I guess we could start a new thread and let this chap have his back. OMG, the world is not against you and neither is this forum. If you want to avoid being attacked... try being less pessimistic and more tactful in your comments. No one wants to hear a grown man whine (in the form of circular reasoning at that).

[DumHed]

I's well known that the CA and RB are extremely similar engines in design.

It's also well known that the CA is notorious for killing bearings.

What no one seems to be getting here is that the rocker arms in the SR20 are not its weak point.

The hydraulic lash adjusters are.

Funnily enough, the CA and RB (except the 26) also use HLAs, and although not as pronounced, have the exact same problem.

If they did have solid lifters everyone would whinge because they couldn't just bolt in a set of aftermarket cams without a long and involved adjustment process.

Many very high revving engines use rocker arms. F1 engines, jap bike engines (mine does 14500rpm), Honda VTEC engines, etc.

Have a look at the internals of some time. The SR20 has a much more reinforced block (even being alloy it's heavier than a CA) compared to the CA, and much stronger rods.

Plenty of SRs have been making 250+rwkw with stock internals reliably. I know of one that's been running 260 at the wheels for quite a while with stock rods, and after a teardown the rods have been tested and measured and are 100% within spec. No damage at all. They are actually a very strong forged and shot peened rod straight from the factory.

One point that's worth mentioning too is that the HLAs are not a problem till you start upping the revs. On a high powered n/a engine you need revs to make power, but with forced induction you can just run higher boost levels. More boost is more stress, but lower rpm is less stress - so in the end you can make more power without excessive reliability problems.

An SR20's strong point is its midrange, so why not just extend that instead of trying to rev it past its optimum range?

Anyway, I'm not going to get into an argument, but I think people should sit back and look at the big picture. Revs are not the only thing, a big turbo is not the only thing, number of cylinders is not the only thing. With a bit of logical though you can see that the ideal path to more power is different for different engines.

Just because you'd change rods, pistons, valvetrain, crank, etc in a CA to make more power through higher revs doesn't mean you have to do that on an SR to make power.

Intelligent modification looks at the engine's stengths, and builds on those, rather than wasting resources trying to correct a perceived deficiency which, in the scheme of things, is not that important for 99.9% of peoples' goals.

[Chris32]

I started to read this thread hoping I could find out what is needed to get into the 12's in my R32

It has turned into a RB v SR v CA bitchfest

Who cares what motor is better? Tuned and modifed correctly each motor will produce good power - they are all Nissan engines, all have there strenghts and weaknesses

So who really gives a toss!!!

So how do I run 12's?

[Freebaggin]

I started to read this thread hoping I could find out what is needed to get into the 12's in my R32

It has turned into a RB v SR v CA bitchfest

Who cares what motor is better? Tuned and modifed correctly each motor will produce good power - they are all Nissan engines, all have there strenghts and weaknesses

So who really gives a toss!!!

So how do I run 12's?

Nice one mate!