Rich + More Ignition, Or Lean + Less Ignition, What Is A Safer Way To Tune?

[Rolls]

Just dial in timing till the motor stops making power or knocks for a certain rpm, then proceed to next rpm band.

Joys of e85, keep pumping in timing till the power drops as it doesn't knock.

But that is the question though, if you make it really rich (10:1) you can run more timing however rich kills power, or you could run it really lean (13:1) with less timing.

Different combos are going to have different results, however I think it isn't a trivial answer, one or the other will make more power.

E85 does knock btw, it just sounds different so be careful.

[Guilt-Toy]

lol.. e85 does not knock.. love it.

[scotty nm35]

How can you not have heard it Guilt toy? I guess you don't do that many ethanol tunes over there but it knocks audibly on cruise when you lean it out, just like dino 98. I wouldn't be letting anyone near my engine without a knockbox, not at 30-40psi.

[iruvyouskyrine]

I think he is joking. Put quotation marks around the middle and you will understand

[Guilt-Toy]

iruvyouskyrine... you seem to be tuned on the correct frequency when it detonated pretty hard a few posts back.. lol

[scotty nm35]

Ah.

*Blushes. lol.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

But that is the question though, if you make it really rich (10:1) you can run more timing however rich kills power, or you could run it really lean (13:1) with less timing.

Different combos are going to have different results, however I think it isn't a trivial answer, one or the other will make more power.

E85 does knock btw, it just sounds different so be careful.

FYI I do a little tuning for friends as a hobby, it's not all just theory for me.

Yes you are correct, more rich means less power, however you get more torque and at the same time allows you to run a tiny bit more timing. I recently finished up road tuning my close mate's S15 and compared to how it was behaving with the factory map the car feels completely different.

I find that (from my experience) that making the car flat out rich when it comes on boost allows it to spool up quicker and also give it that low/mid range punch. The stock S15 map had O2 feedback enabled all the way to atmospheric pressure which is column 40 (nistune), I disabled it for those cells and richen up the mixture and I tell you it comes on song much harder and faster.

On his map afr goes from 12.5 to 11 then back to 12 when it reaches redline, I find SR motors have this timing hole around 4000 ~ 4400rpm and love a little more fuel there - 2 degrees timing there as it reaches the motor's VE, after that you can ramp it pretty hard up top, at peak torque it's got only 11 degrees of timing and rich as, but up top it's got 18 degrees of timing and is leaner to make the power.

Rolls, if you want to take this offline just PM me, happy to share my knowledge & experiences with people interested.

[Blackkers]

interesting read.

[Guilt-Toy]

all i can say is that there are too many variables. sooo many that the info in this thread is just all bananas.

every car, every engine is different. you just gotta read the engine, then give it what it needs to get what you want.

[Lithium]

^ agree totally, hence not adding anything to this thread. Well that and I don't really feel compelled to discuss my tuning ideas online and out of context.

I find that (from my experience) that making the car flat out rich when it comes on boost allows it to spool up quicker and also give it that low/mid range punch. The stock S15 map had O2 feedback enabled all the way to atmospheric pressure which is column 40 (nistune), I disabled it for those cells and richen up the mixture and I tell you it comes on song much harder and faster.

On his map afr goes from 12.5 to 11 then back to 12 when it reaches redline, I find SR motors have this timing hole around 4000 ~ 4400rpm and love a little more fuel there - 2 degrees timing there as it reaches the motor's VE, after that you can ramp it pretty hard up top, at peak torque it's got only 11 degrees of timing and rich as, but up top it's got 18 degrees of timing and is leaner to make the power.

Rolls, if you want to take this offline just PM me, happy to share my knowledge & experiences with people interested.

Seems like there should be more threads actually on the topic of actual engine tuning as it seems to drift in/off topic on a few threads here, and there are clearly a few people interested and indulgent in it. It's quite interesting to see how far different some people are doing things to how I am, too.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

^ agree totally, hence not adding anything to this thread. Well that and I don't really feel compelled to discuss my tuning ideas online and out of context.

Seems like there should be more threads actually on the topic of actual engine tuning as it seems to drift in/off topic on a few threads here, and there are clearly a few people interested and indulgent in it. It's quite interesting to see how far different some people are doing things to how I am, too.

More than happy to share my knowledge & experiences provide people don't shut down each other and flame the shit out of each other...

I'm also happy to share my maps with others interested too.

For me it's not doing it for a living, hence I don't keep it a black art, I find it fun doing tuning. Hence I do it for my mates for free.

But up for a chat any time, just PM me.

[Rolls]

More than happy to share my knowledge & experiences provide people don't shut down each other and flame the shit out of each other...

I'm also happy to share my maps with others interested too.

For me it's not doing it for a living, hence I don't keep it a black art, I find it fun doing tuning. Hence I do it for my mates for free.

But up for a chat any time, just PM me.

Thanks for the offer, I might just do that some day. I've mainly been reading the nistune forums and having a small play myself to understand the concepts, purely for my own interests, I don't plan on turning it into a business ever.

[wolverine]

From my varied experiences with a number of different tuners there are many ways to skin a cat but the best take home message I got from Yavuz at Unigroup during a tuning workshop was pretty much what Anthony posted above....give the engine what it likes. They behave more like organic things than mechanical things.

Last time on the dyno with DVSJEZ giving the Stagea a whisker more fuel at peak torque allowed it take a lot more timing and made a lot more power. The AFR that keeps the Stagea happy is different from the R33 at peak torque.

Clearly there is no "right" way other than experience or patience.

[Rolls]

With what is said I wonder what makes an engine lean one way vs another, or even lean one way at peak toque and the other at redline.

I'm guessing when you are flow limited and cooking the air with a turbo too small then you need the rich + timing, but when you have the opposite you can lean it out more. Though obviously a bit more to it than that.

[GTSBoy]

Yeah, factors like how much of a restriction the hot side of the turbo is and therefore how much reversion you get will significantly influence what you can get away with. And so that opens it up to a whole bunch of variations in turbo choice + cams + cam gears + actual boost level + IAT + how clean the inside of the engine is (carbon deposits don't have to be big to cause it to want to ping) and how much oil mist it breathes.

[Guilt-Toy]

From my varied experiences with a number of different tuners there are many ways to skin a cat but the best take home message I got from Yavuz at Unigroup during a tuning workshop was pretty much what Anthony posted above....give the engine what it likes. They behave more like organic things than mechanical things.

Last time on the dyno with DVSJEZ giving the Stagea a whisker more fuel at peak torque allowed it take a lot more timing and made a lot more power. The AFR that keeps the Stagea happy is different from the R33 at peak torque.

Clearly there is no "right" way other than experience or patience.

made me smile... but I am not suprised yavus is on the same page as me. the guy is a professor and has been for a very very long time. hmmm that reminds me I should pay him a visit soon.. its been a while.

[Piggaz]

made me smile... but I am not suprised yavus is on the same page as me. the guy is a professor and has been for a very very long time. hmmm that reminds me I should pay him a visit soon.. its been a while.

*like*