New Performance Cars

[imnotwearingpants]

Supposedly Hyundai are bringing the coupe Genesis over

Hyundai's halo sports car coming to Oz

[Nee-san]

why do so many people hate FWD cars? i'd hazard a guess that 95% of haters have never driven a decent front wheel drive and have probably only driven some crappy base model corolla or something like that. a decent fwd car is nice to drive. as many of you know, the missus has a SSS pulsar and even though it's 11 years old it still handles well, and compared to my mums corolla from the same year it feels a lot better.

look at the lap times the hot hatches get around the topgear test track. some of them are pretty impressive. too many people just dismiss them because they can't do fully kebab spec drifts. there is too much misinformation out there, usually spouted by people who have no idea what they are talking about.

as for a xr6 being scarey at 110kmh, seriously grow a pair. did it have aftermarket suspension and/or wheels? and what was the road like? if yes to wheels/suspensio then that may be part of the problem. hard suspension mixed with bigger wheels on a rough road will make any car, including a skyline, handle like shit. my sister in law's ex boyfriend has a xr6t that is lowered with bigger wheels and i've been through some twisty roads in it at speed and it felt pretty good. i also drive a vt wagon with 18's and crapped out stock suspension and poor wheel alignment (siezed tie rod on the drivers side so until i get around to heating it up to crack it it will have to stay the way it is) and even it isn't that bad. it isn't great, but it isn't terrible.

I'de like to think I have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about and the fact remains that they are not as good pure and simple.

They are forever tied with the shopping trolley shitbox market purely because that is all they are good for, except maybe in some very very specialized fields.

This is the truth, there is no misinformation and I call upon anyone to give me a engineering level explanation on why they disagree.

I agree the sportscar market is not at all what it used to be, I guess just a product of the economic and facetious environmental market we are currently in.

I've driven lots of Falcons and commodores, they are fine cars to get around in but they are in no way sporting, which is absolutely fine because they are in no way designed for that purpose, people delude themselves into this false reality somehow.

[warps]

I call upon anyone to give me a engineering level explanation on why they disagree.

Oh, you mean to refute your engineering level explanation?

I'de like to think I have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about the fact remains that they are not as good pure and simple

Geez, I don't think I can match your engineering logic.

I won't bother getting dragged into this ridiculous argument, as I've already said my piece about FWD vs RWD. Haters always gonna hate.

[Cowboy1600]

I'de like to think I have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about and the fact remains that they are not as good pure and simple.

They are forever tied with the shopping trolley shitbox market purely because that is all they are good for, except maybe in some very very specialized fields.

This is the truth, there is no misinformation and I call upon anyone to give me a engineering level explanation on why they disagree.

I agree the sportscar market is not at all what it used to be, I guess just a product of the economic and facetious environmental market we are currently in.

I've driven lots of Falcons and commodores, they are fine cars to get around in but they are in no way sporting, which is absolutely fine because they are in no way designed for that purpose, people delude themselves into this false reality somehow.

I agree with some of your sentiment, but I don't agree with how you came about it.

I agree that FWD drive cars are simply never going to match a RWD car of equal standing. There's one reason pure and simple: As soon as you make the wheels responsible for direction also be responsible for drive, you are going to run into problems. It is that simple. When you have one pair of wheels doing the pointing AND propulsion, you have to compromise. And that compromise will lead to decreased performance. Sure, FWD are getting better and they are getting less and less torque steery, but it will ALWAYS be an issue. It's got nothing to do with target markets, it purely an engineering problem.

As for you comments about Falcons and Commodores, that I disagree with. They are no more or less designed with "sportiness" in mind than any other road going car (save for the absolute upper end supercars). Even EVOs are built on a modified shopping trolley platform. And if they are not "sporty" why then are they so quick? A well steered Commodore/Falcon is a difficult thing to keep up with.

[Cowboy1600]

Oh, you mean to refute your engineering level explanation?

Geez, I don't think I can match your engineering logic.

I won't bother getting dragged into this ridiculous argument, as I've already said my piece about FWD vs RWD. Haters always gonna hate.

I certainly do not hate front drivers. But there is a fundamental flaw which plagues them all and that's having the drive wheels also doing the steering. It means compromise because the forces exerted by drive and steering are quite different and not always compatible. But that doesn't mean they are rubbish, it just means they are not perfect (which I would say no car is).

[warps]

Aaron,

Given that your argument appears to be based on some intelligent thought, I'd hardly call you a hater, and my haters comment wasn't directed at yourself.

As for the fundamental flaw of the front wheels doing the driving AND steering, that isn't entirely correct (being a flaw, that is). In slippery conditions, that actually works to the FWD's advantage (just think about what you do to the throttle in correcting oversteer in either configuration)

FWD's hold several state lap records in IPRA - against similarly developed RWD cars

As an example that FWD can equal RWd, consider a recent autocross I attended. compare 2 cars there on the day, one FWD, one RWD

Cars:

FWD: Honda Civic EG6, PRC spec

RWD: Nissan Silvia S13, PRC spec

Driveline:

FWD: B16a - stock internally, with chip and big carbon fibre street racer intake, K&N pod filetr. CR gearbox with carbonetics clutch LSD

RWD: SR20 with aftermarket ECU running antilag, not sure what other engine mods. CR gearbox and LSD

Suspension:

FWD: Bilstein Coilovers, stock arms and geometry

RWD: Full MCA package

Drivers:

FWD: Rally driver who's been competing at club level on and off for 14 years

RWD: Rally driver who has an ARC championship under his belt

Lap times: Run 1 , Run 2 , Run 3 , Run 4 , Run 5 , Run 6

FWD 1:50.50 , 1:45.32 , 1:42.11 , 1:40.48 , 1:41.21 , 1:43.20

RWD: 1:50.50 , 1:47.27 , 1:45.35 , 1:44.87 , 1:46.72 , 1:51.00

In fact, the top 3 FWD's were faster than the Silvia on the day (one of which was a 1.8 laser road car, although it must have had some suspension mods to be so quick IMO.)

The silvia was the 2nd fastest RWD on the day, being beaten by a very well driven 2L PRC escort. The escort just pipped the Civic on the last 2 runs to finish the day 0.27 seconds ahead of the Civic (5:07.00 vs 5:06.73 for the Escort)

Not conclusive proof, but pretty convincing argument against your comment

FWD drive cars are simply never going to match a RWD car of equal standing

Never say never

Edited July 7, 2011 by warps

[djvoodoo]

why do so many people hate FWD cars? i'd hazard a guess that 95% of haters have never driven a decent front wheel drive and have probably only driven some crappy base model corolla or something like that. a decent fwd car is nice to drive. as many of you know, the missus has a SSS pulsar and even though it's 11 years old it still handles well, and compared to my mums corolla from the same year it feels a lot better.

look at the lap times the hot hatches get around the topgear test track. some of them are pretty impressive. too many people just dismiss them because they can't do fully kebab spec drifts. there is too much misinformation out there, usually spouted by people who have no idea what they are talking about.

as for a xr6 being scarey at 110kmh, seriously grow a pair. did it have aftermarket suspension and/or wheels? and what was the road like? if yes to wheels/suspensio then that may be part of the problem. hard suspension mixed with bigger wheels on a rough road will make any car, including a skyline, handle like shit. my sister in law's ex boyfriend has a xr6t that is lowered with bigger wheels and i've been through some twisty roads in it at speed and it felt pretty good. i also drive a vt wagon with 18's and crapped out stock suspension and poor wheel alignment (siezed tie rod on the drivers side so until i get around to heating it up to crack it it will have to stay the way it is) and even it isn't that bad. it isn't great, but it isn't terrible.

Are you positively annoyed friend?? lol

Anyone that has driven from Sydney to the Snowy mountains will understand the high wind areas along the highways, together with late night, early morning start times and other road users/ wildlife to content with.. Snowboards on the roof etc etc.

I'm speaking from personal experience, not 'my friends friends friend has a falcon etc'. I'm not a keyboard warrior

I've driven a 12 seater bus with a trailer

An XR6

My Skyline

No doubt the XR6 felt safer than the bus, but compared to my Skyline, it wasn't in the same league in terms of safety. A gush of wind would pull the falcon off course, sure I have coilovers and a few other parts on the Line, but if the same suspension mods were done to the Falcon, it still remains 200kg heavier, wider and fatter and less nimble.....

110km and scary? Have you ever driven at 3am in a high wind area on open road and compared this with other cars?

[Cowboy1600]

Are you positively annoyed friend?? lol

Anyone that has driven from Sydney to the Snowy mountains will understand the high wind areas along the highways, together with late night, early morning start times and other road users/ wildlife to content with.. Snowboards on the roof etc etc.

I'm speaking from personal experience, not 'my friends friends friend has a falcon etc'. I'm not a keyboard warrior

I've driven a 12 seater bus with a trailer

An XR6

My Skyline

No doubt the XR6 felt safer than the bus, but compared to my Skyline, it wasn't in the same league in terms of safety. A gush of wind would pull the falcon off course, sure I have coilovers and a few other parts on the Line, but if the same suspension mods were done to the Falcon, it still remains 200kg heavier, wider and fatter and less nimble.....

110km and scary? Have you ever driven at 3am in a high wind area on open road and compared this with other cars?

You're kidding, right?

You do know that extra 200kg would be a blessing in a high wind area, right? And yes, I've driven and ridden all manner of vehicles in all manner of conditions and what you are saying is essentially garbage. If you were scared at 110kph in one car, a different car isn't going to help (unless we're comparing a Lada Niva to a well fettled R34).

My old Datto 1600 only weighed 900kg, so I guess by your reckoning it would outperform your Skyline any day of the week. It's be more stable in cross winds and be more nimble.

Dude, hate on Falcons/Commodores all you like, but fact is they are actually incredible cars for their design brief. They are fast, comfortable, fun, handle well and are versatile. People harp on about weight, but 1600-1800kg really isn't that far off the 1450 of a Skyline, and as for depreciation (another common criticism) it's got nothing on a Euro. Drive a $150k BMW off the lot and $40k just fell out of your pocket. 5 years later you've done $70-80k. My dad owns a 99 BMW 750iL. It is immaculate. Brand new price $272,000 - he paid $18k....Now THAT's depreciation. $245,000 in 10 years (he bought it in 2009). And again I can tell you it's friggin' schmick (less than 150,000ks on the 5.4L V12).

[sneakey pete]

Falcons in high wind areas are fine, its lighter cars with high cross sectional areas that aren't, like my old serria. Now that was... interesting.. to drive in the wind, though only really on multiple lane roads. Wind was never enough to push you far enough to knock you over the edge though, but it is annoying when it pushes you towards the guy driving next to you down the freeway. The '97 falcon we had did feel like you were sailing a boat in regards to steering response, but it wasn't a XR version, but otherwise it was good to drive, very 'lazy'. Apart from the falcon and the serria, we also have the line, obviously, aswell as a 2010 corolla which is all round not the best car in the world to drive, a 1967.5 Datsun fairlady, which is pretty much to cramped for me to drive, and a 1989 suzuki swift GTI with new suspension and some basic engine improvements.

All 6 are all very different cars, and apart from the corolla, all have their good points. However, their probably not good to do a "FWD vs RWD" comparison... because despite having a different drive type, all the cars are different types to eachother anyway. Different sizes, different weights, different engines, different suspensions and different purposes.

Edited July 8, 2011 by sneakey pete

[djvoodoo]

You're kidding, right?

You do know that extra 200kg would be a blessing in a high wind area, right? And yes, I've driven and ridden all manner of vehicles in all manner of conditions and what you are saying is essentially garbage. If you were scared at 110kph in one car, a different car isn't going to help (unless we're comparing a Lada Niva to a well fettled R34).

My old Datto 1600 only weighed 900kg, so I guess by your reckoning it would outperform your Skyline any day of the week. It's be more stable in cross winds and be more nimble.

Dude, hate on Falcons/Commodores all you like, but fact is they are actually incredible cars for their design brief. They are fast, comfortable, fun, handle well and are versatile. People harp on about weight, but 1600-1800kg really isn't that far off the 1450 of a Skyline, and as for depreciation (another common criticism) it's got nothing on a Euro. Drive a $150k BMW off the lot and $40k just fell out of your pocket. 5 years later you've done $70-80k. My dad owns a 99 BMW 750iL. It is immaculate. Brand new price $272,000 - he paid $18k....Now THAT's depreciation. $245,000 in 10 years (he bought it in 2009). And again I can tell you it's friggin' schmick (less than 150,000ks on the 5.4L V12).

Chill man, It's Friday, just relax... have a beer and enjoy the sunshine, no need to get all narky.........

Like I said, I'm talking from personal experience having driven a number of different cars in the same driving conditions on the same road at the same time of day. I never said I hated Holden or Fords, in fact one of my dream cars is an XY 351 Falcon. What you experience in your car will differ to my experience. It's all a matter of opinion.

I don't disagree with you, but also consider that the more surface mass you have, the harder the opposing forces (wind) will push against it and therefore affect the pressures exerted on a cars handling components.

Is there a mechanical engineer in the house to resolve the debate?

[greensa14]

A tourer vs a sports car vs a family performace car are very different cars to drive and live with. Say an S14 vs an XR6T vs EVO are all very different cars.

Personally i love RWD small cars that can be thrown around. My bro had an XR6T that was quick but just didnt feel "fun" to drive.

And it def didnt go around corners as well as my S14 or his other GTiR for example. (that thing was stupid quick)

Mind you if i had 50K to spend for a daily that could fit my family in....it would be hard to look past an F6.

Edited July 8, 2011 by greensa14

[iseekool]

I suppose for your average mum/dad type drivers who sometimes drive "sporty" FWD/RWD/AWD does not matter - they don't push their cars hard enough to the limits.

Besides most stock (if not all) RWD cars have understeer dialed in for safety. So for the typical driver they would not know any real difference between FWD and RWD.

Obviously if you drive closer to the limits this is where it matters.... and the traffic light GP where a FWD will struggle to get grip

For me personally, I'm just a purist - I love RWD

[Nee-san]

Chill man, It's Friday, just relax... have a beer and enjoy the sunshine, no need to get all narky.........

Like I said, I'm talking from personal experience having driven a number of different cars in the same driving conditions on the same road at the same time of day. I never said I hated Holden or Fords, in fact one of my dream cars is an XY 351 Falcon. What you experience in your car will differ to my experience. It's all a matter of opinion.

I don't disagree with you, but also consider that the more surface mass you have, the harder the opposing forces (wind) will push against it and therefore affect the pressures exerted on a cars handling components.

Is there a mechanical engineer in the house to resolve the debate?

I graduate next year, my 5th Year of Mech Eng and Motorsport.

And I'm still waiting for an actual scientific response from either Warps or Mad other then, "Yeah you can power out of oversteer" or "I drove a SSS pulsar once, it was better then a corolla".

In my post I referred to some FWD being advantageous in very very specialized fields, I was referring to autocross/gymkhana in this statement, which Warps later backed up in his post.

I'm not saying anyone who drives a FWD is a dickhead or is slow, because they can be made to go fast relatively but I stated in my post that they are Not as good, this is Not an opinion but a general consensus formed by many many years of engineering development.

If you want a example, real world style.

Look at the BTCC, FWD get the smallest weight penalty then RWD, then AWD, Why is this ?

[KezR33]

My understanding was FWD was only better for underpowered cars where weight and (a lack of) torque steer was highly important. That's why all the lowest class cars on any racing game are FWD.

[sneakey pete]

Is there a mechanical engineer in the house to resolve the debate?

Not really hard. Bigger your car is area wise the larger the sideways force you get for the wind*. So more weight is good if you don't increase surface area. Hence why cars like suzuki serria's or busses which have a lot of open space inside are worse, and something like a truck carrying sheets of metal on a flat tray would be best.

*of course, some cars will probably be slightly more aerodynamic sideways than others, but probably not much

Edited July 8, 2011 by sneakey pete

[warps]

Show us some engineering arguments and I might bother responding with some engineering.

You graduate Mech eng next year? I graduated 23 years ago. What's your point?

"power out of oversteer" you missed my point. Think about the whole driving style, or better yet, have a go at it. I was trying to make you think about it, and the answers might dawn onto you. I wasn't referring only to the low speed / tight stuff either. Plenty of fast FWD cars in forest stages too. That's pretty real, and TBH a lot closer to road cars than your example.

As I said, several state lap records are held by FWD cars in IPRA. They can't be all bad.

Perhaps you're right - in theory at the very pinnacle of the sport, RWD probably is better (F1 cars have never been FWD after all, have they?). The Point of this whole thread was what sporty cars are available to buy off the shelf, with some aftermarket support out there? Writing off FWD because of a bias (based on an unrealistic racing category) is pretty irrelevant.

[mico]

r34 gtt are f**ken heavy. i dont think a falcon would be all that much heavier. with stock suspension falcons are hairy, add sway bars coilovers nolothane etc and u have an awesome car that can do everything reasonably well. even the utes with the solid rear end. my mate has all of the above and more on his f6 ute and that thing does not feel heavy at all. hugs the road like u would not believe. my ute handles poorly with lower springs and std shocks very dancy at speed. the 2wd 3rz hilux handle awesome bcos they are light and have hard springs i could do 180 in that thing and was sooo stable, fun car.

[Dani Boi]

What's this topic about anymore

Edited July 8, 2011 by Dani Boi

[tridentt150v]

Still and all it would be a very brave company that puts out a performance fwd car that is bigger than a matchbox toy......

Not saying it can't be done, but such thought processes have turned many a big company into a small business!!!

The one sports saloon area that hasn't been mentioned is the USA one, I realise that Camaro's and Mustangs are bloody expensive - which is a total ripoff when you look at our $$$$ value and what they sell for over there - but if the market ever had a 'correction' similar to the jap import one [remember when importing a GTR cost $000,000's and Gtst's cost $50K] and prices dropped to what they should be then you could afford them. not sure they will offer that great an advantage over the ford/holden 'sports' varieties though? Very similar bases and shared technology so??? but they do look nnnnooooiiiiccccee

[mad082]

can't compare the cost of importing a japanese car to that of a car from the states because not only are you paying for compliance but you are paying for a RHD conversion as well, which means all new dash, steering setup, etc. certainly not cheap. not to mention that the cost of freighting a car from japan would be much less than from the states.