Series II turbo. 220rwkw and beyond?

[Guest INASNT]

I was actually hopeing for a thought provoking and inteligent discusion

LOL learn to spell first mate.

U need to learn about how a turbo works before you can add any intelligent discussion to this.

[rev210]

actually that 180 rwkw figure was with the standard intercooler/fuel system and an untuned safc II. He HAS since produced the higher figure. See it for yourself on skylinesdownunder.com.nz 'RB25 turbo on RB20'.

QUOTE]

As you might already know I have been on that forum for 4 years. I know the thread you are talking about and R32 GTS has yet to go back to the dyno since doing the 180rwkw, he assumes correctly that he has some more power but, there aint a posted dyno graph there to show how much more exactly.

He HAS not produced a higher figure. Use your eye's mate and read the thread in SDU again.

[25det]

ok maybe i was a bit hasty on that comment but i still think that the majority of the people here have had first hand experience with this, 180rwkw may be possible but i think it would be a one off thing, ie drive it around and it blows up on ya.

[Sydneykid]

Hi guys, I have honestly seen this sort of stuff a lot of times, the claims just come and go. Other people try to duplicate it and it doesn't happen. Let's try some facts here;

1. Starting with the difference between dynos in Australia and New Zealand, the Dynomax (and other) hub style dynos are popular in NZ. In Australia the Dyno Dynamics (and other) roller dynos are far more popular. Removing the resistance of the wheels and tyres and the rollers themselves seems to make about 10 to 15 rwkw difference.

As for NZ dynos reading higher than Aussie ones? A roller dyno in NZ should read the same as a roller dyno in Oz. A hub dyno in Oz should read the same as a hub dyno in NZ. It's got to do with the type of dyno (roller or hub), not where it is located.

2. Airflow makes power not boost, boost is a measure of resistance to airflow. So how much boost a car is running is pretty much irrelevant, the airflow is the important fact that you need to know. I for one have no doubt that a standard RB25DET turbo makes enough airflow for 180 rwkw, whether it is on an RB20 or RB25 is also irrelevant. There are too many R33 GTST’s making 180 rwkw on standard turbos for this to be seriously questioned.

3. That leaves me with only one item in this thread that slightly perplexes me. That is the obvious 19 psi (1.3 bar) issue. I know, from experience, that anything over 1.1/1.2 bar starts to become inefficient for the standard turbo on an RB25DET. Since the RB20DET is using less airflow at the same rpm, it is quite possible for the turbo to make 1.2/1.3 bar. I suspect it may be more efficient (make more power) at 1.1/1.2 bar, but 1.3 for 180 rwkw does not seem impossible.

4. So I really have no major problem with the inherent claim, other than the fact that the turbo won’t last very long at anything over 0.8 bar. It’s spit the turbine into the cat time, with temperature being the missing (last) straw.

Hope that makes some sense

[Guest INASNT]

180rwkw was never the issue, it was that sprint32 was claiming 220rwkw + with the rb25det turbo at 13psi and stock cooler and comp. The rb25 turbo does not have enough airflow at 13psi or even 20psi to get that sorta power espec with stock other parts.

[rev210]

Inasnt ,sprint32 was claiming 220rwkw at 19psi and with a front mount and link ecu.

To be supportive I'd actually like to see that happen, I'm not confident but I don't want to discourage a serious attempt either. My only issue is the fact that sprint32 mistakenly thought someone had already done it. Then again perhaps using a racing fuel and more agressive timing this can be made a reality.

[Cubes]

sprint32,

Hes running 13psi through an evo intercooler and is tuned with 450cc injectors and safcII. With this he's running 215rwkw.

[25det]

180rwkw was never the issue, it was that sprint32 was claiming 220rwkw + with the rb25det turbo at 13psi and stock cooler and comp. The rb25 turbo does not have enough airflow at 13psi or even 20psi to get that sorta power espec with stock other parts.

ahh ok then. i can see the turbo up to 13psi possibly even a little more but definetely not 20 (not if you want it to last)

[sprint32]

Actually I said he was making 180rwkw with the standard cooler and ecu/fuel set up. Not 220. I'm sorry for causing such a s**t-storm, But I actually have quite a structured plan. I am going to run a water to air intercooler with water injection plumbed in afterwards. In an attempt to make things a little easier on the turbo trying to FORCE through the restiction in relation to power, I was also considering cams. No-one can deny that helping the engine to breath better by turfing the standard cams will add to end power. Everyone keeps going bigger with everything else but rarely changes these, this perplexes me. I was also going to make the internal wastegate of the turbo larger in an attempt to lessen the dynamic and thermal loads on the ceramic wheel ( opinions?). Everyone is cutting back the exhaust housing to stop back pressure, I was thinking this might work too.

Ya see all I meant when I said we should rethink our setups is to try these sort of things to maximize the efficiency of the gear we currently have before spending MORE money on power bits when the power might already have been there but not fully exploited.

It's nice to see there are some open minded people out there who are willing to listen to idea's BEFORE slagging people and disregarding them.

Cool

[sprint32]

Also, I did re-read the thread rev210. I guess your right, I missinterpreted. I think I must have thought the reason he knew his pump was maxing out is coz he pushed it. Sorry, my mistake.

[Cubes]

Sprint,

Do the mods get your 'good tune' and let us know what 1/4 times u run and the power u make.

State the type of dyno used, mode etc.

Skylines have been around for quite some time now (mine has been in AUS for 6 years) I think they have been pretty much worked over as the VL Turbo has.

The trick to making more power with the same boost pressure is to allow the engine to breath better. A nice set of 264duration cams, nice exhaust manifold, big loud (3.5")free flowing exhaust, a full ecu (non of this piggy back crap).

[Sydneykid]

Hi guys, 2 years ago we did an R34 GTT (~20 rwkw head start over an R33 GTST) with;

HKS FMIC

Power FC

EBC

Larger injectors

Panel filter

Tomei 260/260 9.15 mm lift Poncams (there are 252/252 also wiht 9.15 mm lift for autos or lots of traffic driving)

3" HKS exhaust, hi flow cat

Z32 AFM

We tuned the crap out of it on the standard turbo and the best we could get on Optimax was 215 rwkw at 1 bar (it's efficiency limit). We turned the boost down to 12 psi and it still killed the turbine within 4 weeks.

As for opening up the wastegate diameter, all that will do is stop the turbo from overboosting, but only if the standard diameter is too small. I have yet to see that happen.

So I don't think a legitimate 220 rwkw out of a non Neo engine is remotely possible on the standard turbo with pump fuel for any length of time. Sure I could stick some LMS or Turbo Max in it and get a 10 to 15% increase, but it ain't gunna last. I think that's the point, a car hasn't really got 220 rwkw unless it makes it all day, every day.

Just to wrap it up, we had GCG do a ball bearing hi flow on that turbo and, over 18 months later, at 1.2 bar it still makes 245 rwkw on Optimax all day, every day.

[tntdan]

Christ this thread is repeditive.

I will state a few facts that I have witnessed with my own 2 eyes.

The skyline in discussion made 181rwkw on a hub dyno at checkered flag in wellington nz.

The turbo was RB25 series 1, stock cooler, manual bleed valve running 9psi, un-tuned safc.

Now its got also an evo3 intercooler, 450cc injectors and the safc had had a road tune. The 215rwkw is only the owners guess and not good a one id think.

Hope thats helped.

[tntdan]

Also just the other day I saw a near identical GTS-t (series 2 turbo, no fuel system or ecu mods, standard intercooler) make 155rwkw at 9psi on the same dyno. Just thought I share that for no reason really.

[Guest INASNT]

must be like all the owners guesses on the autosalon dyno comp on sunday. All the guys that claimed they had 450rwkw + only managed 350rwkw.

[SlowGTS-t]

People.. Dynapac hub dyno's give much higher kw readings than Dyno-dynamics rolling road ones. Nuf said.

Why are we bickering about this?

[sprint32]

Guys, Your missing my point! That and the fact that I'm going to be using 2 litres less piping to have to compress which would be wasted turbo shaft speed, And dont give me any more of this crap about larger pipe systems not making any more lag, and sapping power if they are too big. Look at your subbie's, GTI-R's, VL commodores with no intercooler at all (not a great example, but imagine if it had water injection, He's got great response too without the intercooler.), would you use a large truck cooler without cutting it down? Course you wouldn’t, that would be too laggy and waste power I hear you say I'm simply saying that if we use some out of the 'norm' (RE: no rice, doing it just because everyone else has already sort of thing.) And of course the only people who are going to reply to that are those who already have done exactly that. I HAVE had my R32GTS-T type M for over three years now and that was only after I studied the crap out of what can be done with these systems. Fluid dynamics, thermo dynamics between different mediums, etc, etc, and have unfortunately spent too much time correcting other peoples mistakes, and modifying others cars to some quite heady levels. I'm using everything I have learned from PRACTICAL experience, not just doing the same ‘stages’ that everyone else does. Too many sheep believing we’ve discovered everything there is to know, not enough people with inspiration to develop technology to a higher level.

[Guest INASNT]

Well done champ, enough talk lets see you do these out of the ordinary mods and make some good power and quick 1/4 times. When you do please get back to us 'ordinary' people and tell us where we have gone wrong. Until then this thread is all just theory!!!

[sprint32]

That's all it was meant to be. Everyone give him a clap for being the hardass with the attitude. This is a discusion forum mate where we share ideas and theorys for others to elaborate on till we come up with an idea that we can try.

If you want an arguement, go and play on www.performance forums.com

Plenty of people willing to accomodate you there.

[Cubes]

haha no problems Sprint.

I'll leave you with a few quotes..

Joel,

13psi and 215rwkw.. I think your dyno's read much much higher than ours.

Quote2:

Sprint32,

And why does everyone always make these excuses about dyno's reading differently in NZ? that's just nonsense surely.

and then.....

sprint32,

and have unfortunately spent too much time correcting other peoples mistakes, and modifying others cars to some quite heady levels.

If you have spent so much time correcting mistakes and modifying cars then you wouldn't be asking the question in quote 2.

See the problem is you come here spin your thoughts then when they are questioned you get all narky.

Then you continue to argue the point of dyno figures when it is obvious our dyno's read lower. So why not do a little math to work out the equilivent between the two dyno's.

After all you are on a Australian site.