New Engine Blown Up At Tuners

[_x_FiReStOrM_x_]

Hi Y'all

Sorry for the Hijack, but what about this scenario:

1) Workshop does Engine swap (old stock engine, proven healthy, provided by workshop - They got from elsewhere and tested it)

2) All loom, all electrical work done by workshop

3) ECU selected, provided, installed, and tuned by workshop

4) Resulting package has big det problems (still at workshop)

5) Workshop changes ECU, det problem gone, but engine needs rebuild as a result (loss of compression bigtime in 1 cylinder)

Anyone at fault in this scenario?

If loss of compression was caused by detonation problem - workshop at fault for not taking care during tune. (tune should have been aborted at sign of knock).

If loss of compression was caused by engine wear/weak bottom end - workshop not liable.

Was engine proven healthy by a teardown and inspection? Or was it "comp is good, she'll be right mate".

Depends on where they sourced the engine too. Most wreckers or importers have a small warranty period and may replace the engine with another used one.

People need to understand that tuning is a high-risk thing, especially with old engines that have no known history.

[wolverine]

The engine was supplied by the workshop which makes it their problem.

The workshop may have warranty with the wrecker or wherever they sourced the engine but that is their issue to resolve.

[_x_FiReStOrM_x_]

The engine was supplied by the workshop which makes it their problem.

The workshop may have warranty with the wrecker or wherever they sourced the engine but that is their issue to resolve.

Generally with used parts, workshops will only guarantee their 'work' not the parts supplied. If you wanted a 99.9% chance of success rate, you'd buy brand new parts (ie the engine). Of course that's not really feasible in this situation, but i'm sure they would've explained to you that as with ANY second hand part, there is always the chance of failure. Most workshops are run by good people, and i'm sure they'd be more than willing to look after in some way with your situation.

[Duncan]

Generally with used parts, workshops will only guarantee their 'work' not the parts supplied....

Agreed....many workshops will say anything to avoid their responsibility under the Fair Trading Acts to provide goods that are fit for the purpose they were sold.

The business that you the customer pays, is the one responsible for warranting the whole set of goods and services you paid for. If they have an issue with the supplier they need to take it up with the supplier

[STATUS]

In my case it was a Greddy E-Manage Ultimate, which caused strange ignition issues, basically it was advancing timing by about +50 degrees at 6000 rpm onward for reasons unknown.

Changed to a different Emanage Ultimate, which had the same ignition issue.

Changed to a Haltech unit, which does not have this problem, but by then damage had been done. It could have been a setup/wiring problem moreso than the ECU itself, but that was also still handled by the shop.

FWIW, a rebuild is on the cards at a (massively) discounted cost of labor, so they havent exactly been negligent or hard to deal with or difficult in my particular scenario, or refusing to accept any blame etc.

ive had a lot of EMU's coming in for us to fix lately pinking their heads off, there is a few shops tuning these without knock ears and its killing motors, not saying its the case here .

One tuner exclaimed that you can hear pinking and that knock ears were a waste of time..... that particular soarer was over 6 degrees to far advanced and if it wasnt for the fact it was a fresh forged engine it would be dead....

Your better off with the haltech though thats for sure.

[Kinkstaah]

Eh would you actually trust them to rebuild a motor for you? Unless they regularly build motors it will just be another headache, much better off to get a replacement second hand motor imo, also make them pay for it. It isn't your fault they had faulty equipment.

Not entirely, they have a good reputation (well according to SAU), and have offered a pretty decent warranty, though I'd like it in writing... this only happened last week so no course of action is 100% confirmed as of yet. I believe the engine was tested, but I'm leaning towards "comp looks OK, should be fine" type of OK given on it. The car has been in the shop a long time, so technically this engine went into the car about a year ago.. so I am not sure if the shop can follow up with the provider, I'm not sure how you can guarantee an unopened stock engine - but I suppose that isn't my concern.

Nice to know there is some leg to stand on, though. I didn't mean to hijack the thread

[joe blo]

ok guys. pulled it down abit. note the scratch marks at the top of one of the bores. thats number 6. also done it on number 2 or 3 i think. also both sides of the headgasket are shown. one of the pistons has like a dirty/rust coating on it or something. pretty weird

[The Mafia]

Do the scratch marks in the certain cylinders correspond with the bores that were low on compression?

[tridentt150v]

comp test now in

rear 6. 90 - then retested after all others and it was 90 again. maybe 92

5. 60 - retested 2nd last 60 again

4. 165 -

3. 92

2. 145

1. 160 - also retested and got 165 (maybe read guage wrong first time around?)

I guess the answer is only a maybe! anyway those marks wouldn't change the compression from 150>60. Seen heaps worse scuff marks than that and compression was still half OK. So that is not the only reason for low comp.

If the block was not torque plate rebored and honed then those marks could indicate an oval bore?

[MrStabby]

Can anyone confirm if that's light pinging damage (the minor pitting) on those pistons?

[joe blo]

Do the scratch marks in the certain cylinders correspond with the bores that were low on compression?

the rear one had 90psi. will have to look again to confirm the other scrathed one

Can anyone confirm if that's light pinging damage (the minor pitting) on those pistons?

im not sure. i cant remember the finish of them when i put them in. somethings telling me the finish wasnt real smooth to start with. so not sure.

hopefully take it to shop tomorrow or next day to get the rest pulled down

[_x_FiReStOrM_x_]

Whats with the makings on No2 Crown? Interference? Any bent valves at all?

[joe blo]

what markings do you mean? the bits in the middle are from where i wiped it with my oily fingers. or the marks on the side of it? only just noticed them looking at the picture again. dunno about bent valves

the scratch marks going up and down the bore appear in atleast 4 of the bores. maybe 5. cant remember.

[DVS JEZ]

Bent valves would mean no compression in that cylinder.

Have u pulled any pistons out yet?

[STATUS]

pull the pistons, the photos dont have enough detail to show "exactly" the cause.

[STATUS]

I guess the answer is only a maybe! anyway those marks wouldn't change the compression from 150>60. Seen heaps worse scuff marks than that and compression was still half OK. So that is not the only reason for low comp.

If the block was not torque plate rebored and honed then those marks could indicate an oval bore?

Nah more likely be excess heat, insufficient ring end gap or collapsed ring lands/ pitted sides etc..

[James_03]

Previous to taking it to the tuners you mentioned driving it on a rich tune.

Well those bores are glazed to the shithouse, and all the valves indidcate a rich tune. It has not run in properly, and I would take a guess and say you have loaded it up numerous times prior to getting it tuned properly. I think you will find the rings will probably be OK but they have not bedded properly hence the low comp across the board regardless of which cylinder. There aren't any signs there of it having run lean.

Drop the pistons out, give it a light hone without overboring, mic the bores up and check for roundness, then a new set of rings and check for gap before fitting.

[joe blo]

yeah i was thinking the bores were pretty shiny. i paid the tuner guy to run it in for me and he said it would be fine to drive around until i got it tuned again properly. only did about 150kms total before returning to the shop for final tune

[D_Stirls]

He can't run it in as the running in is the first 20 minutes of the engines life, so the rings have never been bedded in is what you are telling us.

You answered part of this finally do you want to answer the rest (i've asked 3 times)

OP, was the engine run at all before it went to the dyno and if so how long did it run and what were the running conditions (i.e. idling, driving, rev's etc.)

i.e. how long did it idle for before you took it for a drive?

Edited August 9, 2011 by D_Stirls

[joe blo]

sorry thought i mentioned it was run in on dyno at the start. once i picked it up the first time i didnt let it sit idleing at all ever. i was abit concerned about if it would be run in even though he did it on the dyno so i treated it as if i was still running it in.

only did about 140 kms. no extended idleing. not holding constant revs.

Edited August 9, 2011 by joe blo