New Turbo Setup

[Rolls]

I'll tune it right to the edge on bp98 but not so it knocks.

This is the issue though, this leaves NO room for error. Your fuel pump has a small hickup, the temps increase 5 degrees up from the temperature you tuned it in, your turbo pushing 1-2psi extra on a super cold night, or you run the motor flat stick at 5k for 10 minutes around the track pushing the temps up above anything you ever saw on the dyno, or the fuel is a few octane points lower due to a bad batch and POP GOES YOUR MOTOR because it started detonating due to running lean or the temps/boost being higher than you tuned for.

You need to set up intake temp trim tables and bump the boost up a bit extra and make sure the maps are correct, road tune as well to touch up any odd load points that weren't ever seen on the dyno and even then you would want to still wind it down a bit for safety and longetivity.

You need to cover every single possibility for tuning on the edge if you want the motor to last, or just leave a large safety margin AFR and ignition wise and know that if any of the above happens you will be fine, tuning on the edge is a bad idea.

Edited August 25, 2011 by Rolls

[Room42]

This is the issue though, this leaves NO room for error. Your fuel pump has a small hickup, the temps increase 5 degrees up from the temperature you tuned it in, your turbo pushing 1-2psi extra on a super cold night, or you run the motor flat stick at 5k for 10 minutes around the track pushing the temps up above anything you ever saw on the dyno, or the fuel is a few octane points lower due to a bad batch and POP GOES YOUR MOTOR because it started detonating due to running lean or the temps/boost being higher than you tuned for.

You need to set up intake temp trim tables and bump the boost up a bit extra and make sure the maps are correct, road tune as well to touch up any odd load points that weren't ever seen on the dyno and even then you would want to still wind it down a bit for safety and longetivity.

You need to cover every single possibility for tuning on the edge if you want the motor to last, or just leave a large safety margin AFR and ignition wise and know that if any of the above happens you will be fine, tuning on the edge is a bad idea.

There is no issue. A cold night or more boost will read more air. That's part of the tune. The intake temp will have almost no effect on my tune as I only start tuning when it has completely warmed up. My car is remarkably consistent with its running temp. I will notice lower octane fuel immediately. I always and I mean ALWAYS check my hand controller after any wot usage. I floor it, I check it. If I was to take it onto a track then I would pull a couple of degrees off the whole map and add extra fuel to the whole map to keep the engine temp down. I dont use a dyno to tune as I dont need one. I worked in a dyno shop 11 years ago and know how to tune a car. I dont know all the specifics of every aftermarket ecu but I know mine well enough. I only use a dyno to check load points that would be unsafe to hold on the road. The ecr33 doesn't use an air intake temp sensor. Refer to Pauls pfc faq. Winding stuff down is for people that provide warranties. I dont need an afr margin. That's just a waste of fuel. I agree with you on leaving some ignition safety. Although that safety is only 1 degree. I'm talking from experience here, not repeating anothers words.

[Rolls]

1 degree isn't much.

After my car had been tuned I did a road tune to get it 100% with someone listening with knock ears. It was a 28c day, not exactly hot and we gave it a bit of a beating then left it idling in traffic for about 5-10 minutes, then we revved out 3rd on the freeway, pinged its tits off, had to pull 3 degrees from peak torque to stop it doing it.

If you have some sort of knock equipment and actively monitor it then sure, go for gold, just don't set and forget it. If you are pulling a few degrees and adding fuel when racing then that is what I was talking about, leaving a margin for error.

[Room42]

1 degree isn't much.

After my car had been tuned I did a road tune to get it 100% with someone listening with knock ears. It was a 28c day, not exactly hot and we gave it a bit of a beating then left it idling in traffic for about 5-10 minutes, then we revved out 3rd on the freeway, pinged its tits off, had to pull 3 degrees from peak torque to stop it doing it.

If you have some sort of knock equipment and actively monitor it then sure, go for gold, just don't set and forget it. If you are pulling a few degrees and adding fuel when racing then that is what I was talking about, leaving a margin for error.

One degree doesn't sound like much but it raises my knock level significantly. I haven't checked lately but it used to raise it about 30 points on my pfc. I hear ya tho. I'm only using the knock sensors on the motor for monitoring knock. They do pick up other sounds for sure but always pick up knock in my car. If you let your car get very hot and heat soaked then you will need to let it cool down or it will knock as you saw. I haven't had my car in summer yet (I only bought it about 6 months ago) but I will be adjusting the tune for the warmer months. I gave it a couple of speed runs once and it got to 85 degrees. It normally sits on 70 and doesn't budge around town. Setting and forgetting is the last thing I would do unless I pulled timing and added fuel. But then it would be slow

[Room42]

Nothing too exciting really but what the hell. So I got it up and running. Garrett GT3582r, 6boost manifold, 50mm Turbosmart wastgate, Kando Dynamic braided oil and water lines. I ended up getting a 4 inch to 3 inch silicon reducer and putting the afm in front of the turbo for now.

I took it for a little test drive with no dump to check for leaks etc. I'm getting the dump made on Tuesday. I modified the stock "J" pipe so I can use the stock bov and the other fittings on it. There is a slight issue with reversion but I will get that sorted over the next week or so.

As far as spool up goes it is not nearly as bad as some people think. I saw 2 psi at 2000rpm and 4 psi at 2500rpm. I have it at gate pressure for now which is 17psi. I saw full boost at about 4500 at just over half throttle. It might be different with the exhaust hooked up tho. There definitely is bugger all under 4000rpm. For normal driving it is fine and I have a nice turbo whine instead of constant bov noise from the stock turbo.

Bloody intercooler piping popped off in 4 different locations. After I did one up tighter, a different one popped off. No biggy tho. I just need to file some grip into the ends of the pipes. I haven't floored it yet as the wideband isn't in there and the intercooler pipes kept coming off. Just before the last time I fixed the pipes to bring it back to the shed I drove down the road at about 3 quarter throttle. There was no grip in 2nd coming on boost and 3rd pulls harder than 2nd used to. It briefly spun the tyres in 3rd coming onto boost....then the intercooler pipe came off

The wheel are stock for now hence the lack of grip but I have some 6 spoke 19inch lenso's to go on there when I get around to it. I don't drive flat out very often (once quick squirt a day) so stock wheels are ok for now.

I'll post a short video next weekend when the dump is on the car. I still have to look at the tune (only 14 knock so far) so once it is all sweet and checked on the dyno I'll make a nice long vid.

[Rolls]

One degree doesn't sound like much but it raises my knock level significantly. I haven't checked lately but it used to raise it about 30 points on my pfc. I hear ya tho. I'm only using the knock sensors on the motor for monitoring knock. They do pick up other sounds for sure but always pick up knock in my car. If you let your car get very hot and heat soaked then you will need to let it cool down or it will knock as you saw. I haven't had my car in summer yet (I only bought it about 6 months ago) but I will be adjusting the tune for the warmer months. I gave it a couple of speed runs once and it got to 85 degrees. It normally sits on 70 and doesn't budge around town. Setting and forgetting is the last thing I would do unless I pulled timing and added fuel. But then it would be slow

If you have an aftermarket ECU that has aux inputs get an intake air temp sensor and set up a timing vs air temp trim table, it will save your motor if you go flog it at 20psi on a 40c day after sitting in traffic.

[Room42]

If you have an aftermarket ECU that has aux inputs get an intake air temp sensor and set up a timing vs air temp trim table, it will save your motor if you go flog it at 20psi on a 40c day after sitting in traffic.

Yes you are right. I already knew that. I have a power fc that has one map for ignition and one for fuel. I can pull timing from the map vs coolant temp using a datalogit if I like. It is set now so the timing stays the same no matter how hot it runs. If I ever run the engine up to 100 degrees I would set the car up before doing so.

I liked your comment on hydraulic lifters earlier We learn something new every day, even me

[Rolls]

Coolant temp is better than nothing, but air intake temp is far more important. You could have a fantastic cooling system that works great on a 40c day and coolant temps only rise slightly, air temps however will soar.

If it is all you have then certainly utilise it, but if you can somehow set up an intake air temp sensor that would be even better.

[Hanaldo]

Not expensive or hard to set up an intake air temp sensor either. There's a thread about it on the NIStune website.

[Room42]

As you guys may already know the R33 doesn't have an air intake sensor in the stock computer or the power fc. If I got nistune on a different computer then I could set up the air temp compensation. Another thing I thought of is putting an aftermarket gauge from the coolant sensor and using that to keep an eye on the coolant temp. Then I could run another sensor in the piping and run that to the coolant sensor wire from the ecu. Then I would get a readout at the hand controller of the intake air temp. I could then setup the "coolant temp vs ign timing" in the ecu as it would now be adjusting to the intake air temp and not the coolant temp. I have a air intake sensor in the shed so I might give it a try.

[Hanaldo]

Yeh not sure how you would do it with a PFC. With NIStune it's as simple as getting a data acquisition cable which interfaces with NIStune and allows you to monitor 8 external channels.

[Room42]

Yeh not sure how you would do it with a PFC. With NIStune it's as simple as getting a data acquisition cable which interfaces with NIStune and allows you to monitor 8 external channels.

Maybe I didn't explain clearly enough in the last post. The R33 doesn't have an air intake sensor. Even with nistune I would still have to put a sensor in there.

What I was saying is that I could add a temp sensor to the intake and feed that signal to the coolant channel in the power fc. Then I could pull timing based on that.

I would have to disconnect the coolant sensor from the pfc and run an aftermarket temp gauge to keep an eye on coolant temps.

[Hanaldo]

Lol no I know man, that's what I was saying. With NIStune it's as simple as getting a DAQ cable and a sensor, would cost about $50 all up. No messing around with rewiring things to 'trick' the ecu.. Thinking of doing it myself actually, will get an EGT probe as well. Would like to have some way to monitor it without having the laptop in the car though, thats the only downside.

Not arguing or anything here lol, just thought I would contribute to the discussion

[JonnoHR31]

Then I could run another sensor in the piping and run that to the coolant sensor wire from the ecu. Then I would get a readout at the hand controller of the intake air temp. I could then setup the "coolant temp vs ign timing" in the ecu as it would now be adjusting to the intake air temp and not the coolant temp. I have a air intake sensor in the shed so I might give it a try.

i hope your joking? theres a reason the ecu has its own coolant temp sender...

[Rolls]

Not expensive or hard to set up an intake air temp sensor either. There's a thread about it on the NIStune website.

Didn't think many of the nissan ECUs had support for intake air temp trim?

edit: I read up and saw that you can do it via an external channel, thats interesting.

I did a search over there but couldn't find the thread though, any help?

Edited October 9, 2011 by Rolls

[Hanaldo]

Didn't think many of the nissan ECUs had support for intake air temp trim?

edit: I read up and saw that you can do it via an external channel, thats interesting.

I did a search over there but couldn't find the thread though, any help?

Yeh man, in the general section. Thread called "guide to cheap DIY data logging". Think it's on the second page now.

[Rolls]

Yeh man, in the general section. Thread called "guide to cheap DIY data logging". Think it's on the second page now.

can you set up say an ignition trim table vs the air temp though?

[Room42]

i hope your joking? theres a reason the ecu has its own coolant temp sender...

I'll try it and see how it goes. If it doesn't work then I've lost nothing. If it does then no worries. I think I did convert it then the readout wouldn't be that different anyway. Now it reads 70degrees most of the time. I would expect the air temp to read about 40 degrees most of the time. When I flog it then it will get hotter and pull timing. It wont make any difference to cold starting because I would just "zero" the necessary water temp settings.

Give us your 2 cents tho mate and put some detail into it.

Lol no I know man, that's what I was saying. With NIStune it's as simple as getting a DAQ cable and a sensor, would cost about $50 all up. No messing around with rewiring things to 'trick' the ecu.. Thinking of doing it myself actually, will get an EGT probe as well. Would like to have some way to monitor it without having the laptop in the car though, thats the only downside.

Not arguing or anything here lol, just thought I would contribute to the discussion

I wasn't having a go Martin, I just thought you didn't understand what I meant

[Rolls]

I'll try it and see how it goes. If it doesn't work then I've lost nothing. If it does then no worries. I think I did convert it then the readout wouldn't be that different anyway. Now it reads 70degrees most of the time. I would expect the air temp to read about 40 degrees most of the time. When I flog it then it will get hotter and pull timing. It wont make any difference to cold starting because I would just "zero" the necessary water temp settings.

Assuming there is no way to use the extra sensors to create a map that has timing vs sensor-x then that is actually a really good idea, if there is then using the extra inputs would be the better way.

How detrimental would not having cold start enrichment be though? I guess the main issue would be to find an air intake temp sensor that uses the same voltage range as the water temp sender, wouldn't be too hard to create an equivalent table to figure out how to set up the map though.

Might speak to pete see if he thinks it is feasible when I get my tune fixed up in a week or so, as with the huge difference between a 10c night in winter and a 40c day in summer I really would like to have intake air temp correction.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Rolls

[Hanaldo]

can you set up say an ignition trim table vs the air temp though?

This is something I'm still looking into, I believe you can on some ECU's but not all of them http://forum.nistune.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=857