Japan and Indirect (and direct!) Rascism...

[Rezz]

How many of you Japan residents (and guys who have lived in Japan over 1 year or so) *really* feel comfortable living in Japan?

I know some of the guys living in the country might not encounter as much indirect rascism as some of the city residents, but how much does it affect your enjoyment about living here in Japan?

When I first came to Japan almost 4 years ago, I was pretty much naive to the whole "indirect rascism" thing. But as I got more of a handle on how (and why) Japanese people percive things and ESPECIALLY after getting married to a Japanese girl, I suddenly felt like a part of the Japanese "club" as it were, but at the same time came upon the realization that a whole lot of Japanese people (a good amount of them older people) resented that I was in Japan, and furthermore, would either downright:

a) ignore me, B) say things along the lines of "you're a foreigner, so you don't know what you're talking about" and c) just general disrespect ie: coughing *directly* onto me on the train, puting briefcases on the only available seat on a bus so I couldn't sit down, offering free chu-hi drinks to all the people waiting in line at Daiei supermarket checkout except me etc,etc,etc...

"Haha! Get a thicker skin Rezz!" you might say... but times those rascism experiences by 1000 and then you're starting to get close to how it feels.

P.S. I once had an older guy (General Manager of Minato Bank in Osaka as it turned out) say to me on the train after an old f*cked up woman verbally abused me (totally ignoring the other 60 Japanese people who were using their phones) for using my mobile phone on the train, "Don't worry about her, she just doesn't like gaijin... where are you from?".

[urbanoperations]

never a good start to another country is it? i dont think i would ever live in Japan, i would go there for a holiday well business purposes but idont think i could stand living over there no offence to you japanese residents...

[DaiOni]

I think I've got a pretty good handle on japanese culture (33% of it from studying it before I got here, the rest learned 'on the job' of the last couple of years). I have no problems with japanese culture and the way I'm perceived - partially because I'm pretty open-minded, largely because I've been treated so, so, so well by some of the people I've met (the positives outweigh the negatives). I will say that being a male makes life a lot easier.

99% of gaijin 'whinges' can be boiled down to cultural difference and the opinion "it's like * at home, it _should_ be like * here"

I also often think of how we (in general) treat asian (the 'obviously' aesthetically and culturally different) people in our own culture (stereotypically) - so, IMO, let's not throw stones in glass houses

but, yeah, rezz, I know exactly where you are coming from

[Demon Dave]

With the exception of a stuck-up a$$hole at my local bank (who refused to change my friends travellers cheques because he didn't have an account with the bank!!!, then refused to change them for me when I told him I had an account there, acted as if I was lying, then insisted I prove my ID and account information and finally set an a dumbass limit of 10,000 yen!) I've never had any problems with racism / anti-gaijinism

On the whole I'm pretty comfortable with the way I'm percieved and the way I'm treated by the people I meet. In any society there's bound to be the odd few people who take an instant disliking to foreigners, no matter who they are or where they come from. Thankfully these people are the exception rather than the norm...

[Bakadesu!]

I haven't lived there, just visited, so I didn't have a chance to get anything like that happening.

I milked the "he's foreign, so of course he doesn't know what he's doing" concept for all it was worth, which is fun for a little while, but it was the only way to learn.

You know those little sugary coloured things you delicately eat with tea instead of putting sugar in it? You only eat one whole and make a loud crunching sound as you do so once, until you see one of these expressions --> :nowigetit

Then you don't do it again. :Oops:

Which reminds me...at the recent Drift Nationals in Melbourne, I walked up to Tezuka Tsuyoshi (D1 driver and Shachou of Kid's Heart workshop) and asked him, in Japanese, what he thought of Aussie drifting, and actually got a decent response (We're used to the speed, but need more practice, apparently), and that was the first time I ever successfully spoke Japanese, to a Japanese person who spoke no English. Bwahahah, thankyou, thankyou. :thankyou:

[Rezz]

But guys (Dave, Brian and Troy), do you *really* feel comfortable, like Japans your "home-away-from-home"?

I don't think I'd ever feel 100% comfortable... now that I think of it, I live in a rich area, and maybe the snobby nature of the well off people around here make it uncomfortable at times... I don't know.

[DaiOni]

Yes. I feel more comfortable living here than I do in australia - far more, and on so many levels.

BUT... having pitiful language skills does create a 'bubble' effect.

[PURE]

It's really hard to say since I've been in the country for so long.

Well here's what I know. Finding a girlfriend *without going clubbing or useing your english teacher status* is no easy task for a white guy, for several reasons. First, most of these girls never envisioned themselves dating a white dude. In fact, they can only imagine dating a Japanese dude most of the time. Second, theres the family thing. I've dated many girls who could not tell their family about me due to the fact I was AMERICAN. Older people obviously have resentment towards my country and want to keep their family 'japanese'. So finding a GF can be a pain in the ass, unless you know where to look.

Hm...

The one thing I hate is how people freakin avoid you at all costs and when you make eye contact they cant so much as make a tiny smile. Or how they are always staring at you from a distance. Sometimes I have fun with it now and stare back.

[Demon Dave]

Again, it seems I've been lucky in a lot of respects. My wife's family are really friendly and do not in any way seem to resent their daughter marrying a white dude. I spend a lot of time at their place, probably even more now we've just had our second child and their always going out of their way to help in any way. My mother in law seems to be have become an English fanatic, always trying to her best to communicate in English with me...

Still, as pure said a lot of Japanese girls will do their best to keep the fact they have a foreign boyfriend a secret, especially from their parents and family.

And do I feel *really* comfortable living here? Yeah, I guess I do. Sure, I get the occassional stare from people (and the odd bit of racism now and again) and it's hard not to notice all eyes shift to me (and my family) when we enter a restaurant or shop, but I've come to think of it as more like being a celebrity than anything else...

And besides, while Japan may not be perfect, to me it's totally better than living in the UK!

[DaiOni]

I haven't had many issues with staring - except from obaasan and little kids - and those occasions are usually funny anyway. A somewhat common occurence is having an obaasan turn around while waiting in a supermarket line - then going through our shopping basket to see what we are buying (sometimes physically moving things to get a better look) - hilarious!

I found staring to be far far worse in singapore - which is something that surprised me.

[rb26dett]

DaiOni...if you stare at the wrong people in singapore you could get into a fight...it's just the culture...people have and will continue to die just from staring incidences...it's warped i know, but it's the culture there

i've had childhood friends stabbed because of making eye contact with the wrong people and i've been involved in a few altercations because of staring, so next time when u're out in singapore and someone's staring at you (male especially), look away or you could be in trouble.

[DaiOni]

"if you stare at the wrong people in singapore you could get into a fight"

jeebus... everyone was staring at us! My wife had her hair in braids (we had just come from thailand) - so that may have had something to do with it

[rb26dett]

oh yea...hahaha...probably not the wrong crowd too...just cos of the braids probably...but if u do go clubbing or walking round the city n see a group of ppl acting tough and staring at you...they're probably spoiling for a fight

[Evo_Lee]

But guys (Dave, Brian and Troy), do you *really* feel comfortable, like Japans your "home-away-from-home"?

 

I don't think I'd ever feel 100% comfortable... now that I think of it, I live in a rich area, and maybe the snobby nature of the well off people around here make it uncomfortable at times... I don't know.

Generalization regarding all aspects...

I feel no one will ever feel 100% comfortable, it goes for any where you are not a local. Especially with people who comes from countries with wealth and freedom like Australia so to speak. We know there is life outside Japan, so we chose to bear it but not have to accept it…all good experience for us. But with people from less fortunate countries who chose to live and work in their adopted country, because lifestyle and opportunity is greater. So no matter how uncomfortable and unaccepted they feel, they have no choice but to accept and bear with it.

But there have been times while I’m overseas commissioning depending on the country where I couldn’t wait to get back and even eat Japanese food.

edit: I guess also many of us come from a very multicultural countries and Japan in comparison is very much a single pure race. So you can understand why they are so shallow with multiculturalism.

Here's one of many typical MNC cases working in Japan, unless you run your own company.

A mate of mine came to Japan many years ago. He basically fell in love with the country, studied Japanese to perfection and even studied his degree and masters. Joined a company, worked his ass off following the Japanese way...always come in the office before the boss, and left after he left. Also came in on weekends often...for 15 years he did this. Doing this because he wanted to be accepted and be treated as one of them, a lifer...company employee. But every year he still had to renew his contract like a contractor, perks from the company. So he askes his boss I have been in the company longer then some of the staff and yet I have not been promoted or been given full time employment.

The boss says to him if you want to be one of us, you need to get your PR to prove to us your in for the long haul. So out of his pocket he pays for his PR. After doing so h again askes his boss now can I be a full time employee. This boss says to him you now have to marry a Japanese woman. Fark...now his was starting to be ridiculous...thanks but no thanks he quit the company and the company didn't show any regret in his resignation. Moral of the story is you will never be treated like one of them, it is actually better to be treated different. My mate ended up returning to Morocco...which may not have many MNC but you can't beat the lifestyle at home. Obviously case by case but in most cases I've heard they never fully accept you as one of them...because your just not Japanese to start with.

[Rezz]

but in most cases I've heard they never fully accept you as one of them...because your just not Japanese to start with.

...and so it goes...

I figured after that post by Troy, nows a good time to mention the 2nd and 3rd generation KOREANS that are being "allowed" to live in Japan... on a Korean Visa. Yes, thats right... they're parents as well as them were actually born in Japan (Grandparents immigrated), yet they get issued a Korean passport... can't speak a word of Korean, and have never even been (or want to go) there.

Take my Dad for example as a flipside to the situation... comes from Germany m-d-1950's, stays in Australia until 1975 (when changes to dual-citizenship laws happened in Germany), thats when the German governments says "Mr Karow, are you or are you not a German citizen? If you intend on staying in Australia, please revoke your German passport, and become an Australian citizen." Tell me somethings wrong with the Japanese setup...

[SuperGimp]

I haven't been to Japan, but I can understand their attitude towards foreigners. The point has been raised about Australians multicultural attitude. But Japanese is a society which is very cultural may have some degree of tolerance but they in the end we will always be foreign.

In Australia I dont see a Japanese person as Foreign just cos of their apperance, but their language. If they speak like me I can accept them fully but if they talk in their language where I can understand them whether it be partially of not I feel, hesitant as they are not abiding by my Australian culture and I will stare or ignore shun or whatever I feel nessecary to do I dont really care if they have citizenship, they took tests for English they should at least f%&king use it.

When I go to Japan I will respect their culture and people, but I dont wanna fit in I am only a tourist.

Now here's my true feelings dont read this is you get offended.

Japanese are cut cos they got nuked......twice. My grandfather fought in WW2 and hates Japanese he wouldn't give a shit about them as what they did (I am not liying. He wants to go with me to Japan and I'll properly ask him, he can tolerate them but still and always will feel this way.

In a way I still feel Japanese as a whole havn't forgotton what happened, similar to my grandfather. They may not show it but deep inside they know that they have lost their so called power over, the countries surrounding them and the people defending those countries, they are annoyed that Gajin destroyed their path or whatever and will always feel pissed of at use for stopping it.

Sure the young Japanese may not be taught this but they have parents and grandparents to and with society less multicultural they can adapt their views past mere appearance, you can talk the talk but you cant walk the walk so your still your just shit to them, them I mean as a society most I'm sure individually have different views but I am speak generalisations, or maybe I'm speaking shit?.

Australia rules, I wouldn't live anywhere else.

[Rezz]

Japanese are cut cos they got nuked......twice. My grandfather fought in WW2 and hates Japanese he wouldn't give a shit about them as what they did (I am not liying.

Better not take your Grandad here then...

Lets not let this get out of hand fellas. SuperGimp, I aswell as other guys on this forum are married to Japanese... just letting you know.

[funkymonkey]

When I stayed up in japan I didn't encounter any direct racism... however, being of Sri Lankan decent I had to face a different shade of racism to you guys. I reckon in japan the order of race superiority goes like so... japanese... indian... white... african... god knows why, but indian looking people in japan are treated OK as far as I could tell.

I managed to get by with my elementary japanese knowledge... although I didn't stay for too long and was constantly on the move. I'm going to japan for a year once my course finishes to work at Canon Nippon, it'd be quite interesting to see what happens. Most of the guys who went to japan from canon have come back with jap wives... wierd hey?

[sean01]

Super Gimp, if you have been to Japan you will understand how much the culture has adapted to the western ways so dont start about the war influences. You have no right to state that just because some Japanese chose to live in Australia they should speak english full stop. My mother moved from Japan to Australia and has lived in Australia for 30 years, can read, write and speak english fluently but will never forget her heritage. F#$K everything comes down to the war bullshit. When Australia opned its doors to the world there was a shitload of racism but with everything it takes time for a contry to adapt and accept people from other countries.

Japan just doesnt have enough foreigners. F#@K all this shit about my grandfather fought in the war and hates race X so I should follow in his footsteps blah blah blah... grow up and accept the world for what it is. War is good for no one period. If you stick out from the crowd, your gonna get stared at, just face it.

[DaiOni]

dude, the resistance to foreign influences/people goes back waaaay further than wwII - 1500s/1600s at least (and that's just against european people). The modern 'militaristic japan' - particularly between 1900-1945 was a product of many things, but mainly the attitudes of the ruling class at the time. I think you'd find that the every-day japanese people, today at least, are some of the most peace-loving on the planet! At least that's my impression. Though we should never forget it, and we should learn from it, we shouldn't live in the past.