Tomei Pon Cams S2 Rb25

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

2 minutes ago, BK said:

I notice a MASSIVE difference on the blue 32 with the 6466, like I mean night and day even on part throttle inputs. I have the 98 vs E85 dyno for it on here.

I'm not disagreeing with you  

I run full flex on my car, however the butt dyno hasn't really differentiated the difference (old motor, not current motor). I've also never run any logs on 98RON just because ceebs.

 

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

2 minutes ago, GTSBoy said:

Pls allow the combustion engineer in the room to correct this.

Ethanol does in fact have a bit more exhaust gas volume than petrol, but it is nowhere near 25-30% extra. The only difference is that ethanol has a higher H:C ratio, so makes more water vapour. For each O2 molecule you use to oxidise a hydrogen, you will create 2x molecules of water. With carbon, each O2 only makes 1 CO2.

While you might use 25-30% more fuel on E85, you use almost exactly the same amount of air to make the same power. Therefore you use almost exactly the same amount of O2, and hence N2 (from the air).

The reality is that the extra water vapour and smaller qty of CO2 really just increases the exhaust gas volume by a few %. Maybe 5. I'm not about to go do the stoichiometry calculations. But, I have recently been doing exactly that for H2 replacement of natural gas in industrial applications and even then, when you're talking about only making water vapour and no CO2, the increase is not as fat as 30%.

fking love the explanation, my nipples are hard.

[GTSBoy]

The only way that the water vapour itself can boost exhaust flow, beyond the simple number of molecule increase, might be the specific heat capacity. H2O has a somewhat lower Cp than CO2 does and so it will increase to a higher temperature (for the same thermal energy input), which increases volume flow rate (from thermal expansion). OK, so H2O also has a slightly less ideal (ie, non-ideal gas) characteristic and so probably expands a little more also, But that effect will be tiny.

But all this is thrown out the window because we know that E85 exhaust is actually cooler, because of the extra mass of fuel that needs to be evaporated and heated to exhaust temperature. So.... I dunno.

My main suspicion on increased spool is that you can and do run more ignition advance.

[SKYMAGGOT]

31 minutes ago, BK said:

Broscience be incorrect there. E85 has superior spool because of the much increased exhaust gas volume from of how much extra fuel has to be added over 98. The extra 25 - 30% exhaust gas volume on E85 has a far bigger effect on the turbine than the higher egts on 98.

We don't really have e85, can get a 200l for about $900f you can pick it up, but then can't store a 200 easily with insurance etc, I don't really notice anything with spool, just feels a bit flat with less timing but I've only run 1/3 & 50/50 with e100

Edited October 25, 2022 by SKYMAGGOT

[SKYMAGGOT]

6 minutes ago, GTSBoy said:

Pls allow the combustion engineer in the room to correct this.

Ethanol does in fact have a bit more exhaust gas volume than petrol, but it is nowhere near 25-30% extra. The only difference is that ethanol has a higher H:C ratio, so makes more water vapour. For each O2 molecule you use to oxidise a hydrogen, you will create 2x molecules of water. With carbon, each O2 only makes 1 CO2.

While you might use 25-30% more fuel on E85, you use almost exactly the same amount of air to make the same power. Therefore you use almost exactly the same amount of O2, and hence N2 (from the air).

The reality is that the extra water vapour and smaller qty of CO2 really just increases the exhaust gas volume by a few %. Maybe 5. I'm not about to go do the stoichiometry calculations. But, I have recently been doing exactly that for H2 replacement of natural gas in industrial applications and even then, when you're talking about only making water vapour and no CO2, the increase is not as fat as 30%.

 

3 minutes ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

fking love the explanation, my nipples are hard.

OK, yep lol

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

2 minutes ago, SKYMAGGOT said:

We don't really have e85, can get a 200l for about $900f you can pick it up, but then can't store a 200 easily with insurance etc, I don't really notice anything with spool, just feels a bitflat with less timing

WMI the bastard and call it a day  

[SKYMAGGOT]

12 minutes ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

WMI the bastard and call it a day  

Yeah been thinking that, what kit you reckon? AEM 30-3300 or Snow, maybe stage 4?

[BK]

22 minutes ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

I'm not disagreeing with you  

I run full flex on my car, however the butt dyno hasn't really differentiated the difference (old motor, not current motor). I've also never run any logs on 98RON just because ceebs.

Just pointing out what I have noticed from running 98 vs 109 vs E85. Even on VP109 unleaded which you can run similar timing advance to E85, the E85 feels more responsive overall from my broscience.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

6 minutes ago, SKYMAGGOT said:

Yeah been thinking that, what kit you reckon? AEM 30-3300 or Snow, maybe stage 4?

I've never tuned or setup WMI however @The Mafia and @tridentt150v have good experience with them. Maybe they could help  

[robbo_rb180]

3 hours ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Patiently waits for that turbo to blow up so you can modernise it haha...

But being a genuine Garrett, I'll be waiting for a while.

Got to drive it for that to happen............. that setup is great super reliable, drives how I like. Just need that cruise & traction control setup and maybe a new gearbox and clutch.
Race cars get all my attention at the moment.

@SKYMAGGOT no point slap bits and pieces here and there, ends up costing more and takes longer. Do it once and do everything at once. Write down what you want to achieve with a setup and go in a few cars that are similiar to what you want and just work towards that.

[tridentt150v]

I have a Stage III Snow Perfomance kit installed  - it was top of the range then [I think anyway].  Works on IDC and boost and uses a sliding scale.  ie say starts injecting WMI at so 65% IDC, all in at say 80% IDC and/or starts at 8psi boost and all in at say 14psi.

No E85 round here so WMI was the next best thing.

Happy with it, does what I want it to, lets me squeeze a bit more out of the lemon.

Only real advice I can give is, get a progressive one, older versions can come up for sale cheap but they are light switch type on/off units.

There is a thread on here somewhere about it.  I'll see if i can find it and post a link.

A general topic one:

https://www.sau.com.au/forums/topic/396164-lets-talk-water-meth-injection/

My install:

https://www.sau.com.au/forums/topic/306109-my-wmi-install/#comment-5062125

 

 

[SKYMAGGOT]

15 hours ago, tridentt150v said:

I have a Stage III Snow Perfomance kit installed  - it was top of the range then [I think anyway].  Works on IDC and boost and uses a sliding scale.  ie say starts injecting WMI at so 65% IDC, all in at say 80% IDC and/or starts at 8psi boost and all in at say 14psi.

No E85 round here so WMI was the next best thing.

Happy with it, does what I want it to, lets me squeeze a bit more out of the lemon.

Only real advice I can give is, get a progressive one, older versions can come up for sale cheap but they are light switch type on/off units.

There is a thread on here somewhere about it.  I'll see if i can find it and post a link.

A general topic one:

https://www.sau.com.au/forums/topic/396164-lets-talk-water-meth-injection/

My install:

https://www.sau.com.au/forums/topic/306109-my-wmi-install/#comment-5062125

 

 

Cheers man, I'll have a look at those threads, the stage 4 Snow kit looks pretty good, the AEM is progressive also, I'll check if the tuner has any preference.

Looks like the Snow uses rpm & psi where the AEM just psi, I doubt we'll ever get e85 so worth getting a decent one for sure.

[tridentt150v]

Interesting, I only see a Stage III kit as their top of the rainge?

https://www.snowperformance.eu/en/water-injection/boost-cooler/turbo-gasoline

Can you show me where the Stage VI kit is hiding?

Cos I wanted to check how the rpm signal you quoted worked and what advantages it had over IDC.

[joshuaho96]

16 minutes ago, SKYMAGGOT said:

Cheers man, I'll have a look at those threads, the stage 4 Snow kit looks pretty good, the AEM is progressive also, I'll check if the tuner has any preference.

Looks like the Snow uses rpm & psi where the AEM just psi, I doubt we'll ever get e85 so worth getting a decent one for sure.

I would go for Aquamist if you're going to do this. And integrate the control of the injectors into a standalone ECU. Just from reading SAE journal papers it is scary IMO how much can go wrong with WMI even when you have proper control over the injectors and full integration into the rest of the ECU.

[SKYMAGGOT]

6 minutes ago, joshuaho96 said:

I would go for Aquamist if you're going to do this. And integrate the control of the injectors into a standalone ECU. Just from reading SAE journal papers it is scary IMO how much can go wrong with WMI even when you have proper control over the injectors and full integration into the rest of the ECU.

Yeah for sure, can blow the motor pretty easily, I'll have a look at Aquamist

[GTSBoy]

50 minutes ago, joshuaho96 said:

Just from reading SAE journal papers it is scary IMO how much can go wrong with WMI

Probably shouldn't spend so much time reading those papers then.

We've been squirting water-meth into engines with firehoses for 20 years over here. You can quite literally keep adding it until the fire is quenched and nothing goes wrong. The only thing you need to be careful of is running out.

[SKYMAGGOT]

11 minutes ago, GTSBoy said:

Probably shouldn't spend so much time reading those papers then.

We've been squirting water-meth into engines with firehoses for 20 years over here. You can quite literally keep adding it until the fire is quenched and nothing goes wrong. The only thing you need to be careful of is running out.

Combustion engineer in the room...

[SKYMAGGOT]

From what I can gather WMI seems pretty reliable, make sure the injector doesn't get clogged & of course make sure it doesn't run out lol

[joshuaho96]

3 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

Probably shouldn't spend so much time reading those papers then.

We've been squirting water-meth into engines with firehoses for 20 years over here. You can quite literally keep adding it until the fire is quenched and nothing goes wrong. The only thing you need to be careful of is running out.

The basic concept is fine but I've seen people mention issues with things like cylinder distribution especially because most manifolds are designed to split air evenly but not liquid. That and issues like injectors clogging, how to avoid damaging the system if you leave the car outdoors in freezing conditions with 100% water in the lines, valve stem/cylinder bore wear from water washing away engine oil, etc.

I still think a lot about adding an Aquamist setup to the RB26. Water injection to me is a great idea but it definitely requires a lot of thought, as much as any fuel system. Being able to replace boost enrichment with water injection instead is something I'd really love to do.

[GTSBoy]

11 minutes ago, joshuaho96 said:

cylinder distribution especially because most manifolds are designed to split air evenly but not liquid

Yes, but you want a very significant percentage of it evaporated before it gets to the runners anyway.

13 minutes ago, joshuaho96 said:

leave the car outdoors in freezing conditions with 100% water

Yes, well, you know what to avoid doing there, right? Doesn't take much metho in there to stop it freezing.