Maximum Power With Safc 2?

[K-LESS]

As the title says Im very intereseted in what people have achieved with an safc / safc 2 / safc neo.

I have searched all through the dyno results and forums and have noticed they average around 180rwkw - 210rwkw. I have also seen and read of some that have achieved 230rwkw and even 250rwkw.

Id like to hear from everyone who used an safc as a engine management and what other mods they had done. Expecially ones that have gotten around 230rwkw - 250rwkw. Would also like to know what they thought on how it drove etc.

Cheers.

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

you wont be seeing 230+ rwkw with just a SAFC... maybe if you teamed it up with a SITC and a highflowed turbo... either way you will need a fuel pump, injectors afm and FMIC to get there

[blk94r33]

As Hamish said, you're limited by the stock ecu/injectors/afm/turbo, everything basically.

As a guide:

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/topic/104332-rb30-hybrid-upgrade-all-dyno-results/page__view__findpost__p__3705564

277rwkw with stock engine management, 25/30 with all the fruit. So could go higher with the SAFC to fine tune it.

Is that the sort of answer you're looking for?

[paulr33]

covered in the PFC FAQ in my signature

the SAFC itself doesn't cap your power, but the tuner must juggle the mix between IGN timing and AFR's

with the SAFC, as it bends the AFM signal, you must bend both the IGN and AFR

unfortunately they work against each other due to the way it works and there's no work around

so you end up juggling around detonation and timing to make sure its not too lean or vice versa

i reckon you could do 600rwkw with an SAFC and a t88

but the tune would be an absolute prick and it would be on the verge of detonation city or a rich as hell sluggish tune

ie comprises, which is what the SAFC is - a comprimise device - bend the AFM signal to juggle more power

[K-LESS]

Thats cool. Just curious to hear what peoples personal experiences are as well with them. Expecially people that have run them R33 Gts25t. I know aftermarket ecu i.e. power fc and nistune have far better abilities. But yeah if people are getting away with running just an safc 2 as a engine management then Id be intrested to hear what they have to say, what other mods they have done and how they thought the car ran etc.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/topic/52977-bp-ultimate-safcii-dyno-tuning-results/page__p__1041795__hl__geno8r__fromsearch__1#entry1041795

That looks like 230kw at the rear wheels to me with a Safc 2?

Also from talking to other users on here. (Moanie and EVL-R33) they also at one stage were using just a safc 2 for tuning. They were making around the 230 rwkw mark as well. Yes they were using other aftermarket supporting mods like new turbo etc.

And these cars seem to be making alot more than usual to.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/topic/279798-r33-skyline-low-kms-400hp/page__p__4722758__hl__safc+t66__fromsearch__1#entry4722758

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/topic/286607-nisan-skyline-r33-turbo-5-speed/page__p__4818869__hl__safc+t66__fromsearch__1#entry4818869

[K-LESS]

Also would be cool to hear from anyone that has tuned a safc2 them selves as I think Id like to give it a shot in my car.

I am going to get a innovate wide band o2 sensor and gauge and a exhaust temp gauge to assist in doing this.

Couple of questions I have though are:

-: What did you guys set ur 12 x NE Points to?

-: What did you set the Lo Throttle / High Throttle % to

-: What did you do to monitor knock?

-: How would you go about tuning Lo Throttle, because wouldnt the 02 sensor keep trying to correct the changes you are making in Lo Throttle? Would you unplug the o2 Sensor?

-: What target afr's are suitable to tune to?

[Moodles2]

SAFC2 isn't "engine management", it's a piggyback that bends the signal. You will be very hard pressed to find people still using SAFC2 as the Z32 ECU + Nistune combo is the choice for R33s on a budget ($220ish for Nistune type2 daughterboard, $50ish for a used Z32 VG30DETT ECU, $200 for a nistune license and $95 for a usb consult cable and $100ish to have the board installed in the ECU), it will plug straight in and you won't have to hack up your wiring whereas that piggyback you will have to.

[KiwiRS4T]

I had a SAFC and a SITC making around 180awkw. It worked but that's all. Better would be Nistune but no-one in Wellington seems to want to tune it which is a pity, I strongly advise you save the money from the wideband and get a Link ecu.

[K-LESS]

I had a SAFC and a SITC making around 180awkw. It worked but that's all. Better would be Nistune but no-one in Wellington seems to want to tune it which is a pity, I strongly advise you save the money from the wideband and get a Link ecu.

Yeah I have a spare Z32 ecu that I was gonna use to get a nistune. Yeah that is a down side that no one in Wellington will tune them. It would be nice to try tune myself though.

Still intereasted in the cars that have achieved 200 - 230 rear wheel kilowatts with using the safc2 piggy back.

[Mayuri Krab]

I had a SAFC and a SITC making around 180awkw. It worked but that's all. Better would be Nistune but no-one in Wellington seems to want to tune it which is a pity, I strongly advise you save the money from the wideband and get a Link ecu.

Do you still have it?

Wanna sell it to me? They seem to be impossble to find now days...

I'm currently have the usual bolt ons (turbo-back exhuast + high flow CAT, POD, Boost Tee, FMIC & fuel pump) & made ~180rwkw with SAFC 2, also my car is an auto so I would assume rear wheel power would be higher if it were manual.

[KiwiRS4T]

Do you still have it?

Wanna sell it to me? They seem to be impossble to find now days...

I'm currently have the usual bolt ons (turbo-back exhuast + high flow CAT, POD, Boost Tee, FMIC & fuel pump) & made ~180rwkw with SAFC 2, also my car is an auto so I would assume rear wheel power would be higher if it were manual.

Sorry sold it a while back. Here's one on ebay:

http://motors.shop.ebay.com/eBay-Motors-/6000/i.html?_nkw=apexi+SITC&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_rdc=1

but for your set up (R33, auto) I would recommend an E-manage.

[paulr33]

the problem isnt just a single max rwkw figure

everyone looks at a single rwkw max peak figure and goes "thats a good tune" or picks a good setup based on a single peak rwkw value

the problem with the SAFC as i said, its a bender, you comprimise IGN and AFR and you must comprimise both, not one

a good tune results in both being adjusted seperately and in line with engine load, airflow and boost pressure

the drawback with the SAFC is that when you bend the signal, you bend it so that the ECU compensates both

so you get undesired side affects, either too much timing, too lean, or too rich, not enough timing

its a juggling act and you end up with a comprimised tune

the same car with a remap, powerfc or hks fcon pro or nistune would likely make the same RWKW peak figure

but it would respond completly different, it would be more crisp, better on fuel, more responsive and better average power (more tuneable)

so forget single peak rwkw at one point

whats important is how it drives off throttle, off boost, fuel economy and the in-betweens

any setup can make a max rwkw peak

[paulr33]

also if you are going to the cost of installing EGT and AFR guages properly then why bother with SAFC

you might as well do the proper ECU tune and tune the setup (everywhere) correctly with a hand controller

having EGT and AFRs gauges and SAFC will just make you want the powerfc as you will find you constantly juggle the SAFC bending

[paulr33]

-: How would you go about tuning Lo Throttle, because wouldnt the 02 sensor keep trying to correct the changes you are making in Lo Throttle? Would you unplug the o2 Sensor?

-: What target afr's are suitable to tune to?

do some more reading on this but when in light cruise, the ecu runs closed loop, that is, read the 02 sensor and lean out accordingly

the powerfc has adjustable light cruise target and you can tune every cell you like to whatever you want

but thats only valid on light cruise, if you open TPS and load the engine, closed loop stops

target afr's are dependant on the car, its tune, the fuel and engine setup

on my car light cruise is around 16.0 with shitloads of timing (nearly 50deg) i think and on boost is around 14.7

[K-LESS]

also if you are going to the cost of installing EGT and AFR guages properly then why bother with SAFC

you might as well do the proper ECU tune and tune the setup (everywhere) correctly with a hand controller

having EGT and AFRs gauges and SAFC will just make you want the powerfc as you will find you constantly juggle the SAFC bending

I fully understand the benifits of going for a full on after market ecu, compared to tuning with the safc. But I am interested from hearing of the guys that have achieved the power figures I have mentioned. Want to hear what the think about the power difference if it made any all around. Sorry it is partley my fault as I should have been more specific in my first post.

I also understand that forking out all this money for a EGT and AFR Gauge and sensors, that if I was to save my money I could get a nistune, power fc etc. But I am quiet keen to try tune my self. Purely because of the satisfation that I get when I have done my own work on my car. Also for the learning experience to.

So yeah I guess the main purpouse of this is to hear what people thought of their car when it was tuned with just a safc 2 and running uprated turbos, like highflow turbos etc and other mods.

Just from reading your last post paulr33 please correct me if im wrong, but it sounds like that tuning the safc 2 for low throttle would be quiet a challange then since you can't adjust the light cruise target? Also becase you are limited to 12 NE points to bend the air flow meter signal, where as if I had a full aftermarket ecu I could adjust the light cruise target afr's and ignition timing to suit?

But because the safc 2 does have a low throttle option to be able to bend the maf signal, i would hope there is some way to tune this, and was wanting to now how people went about this and what target afr's they tune for under low throttle.

Obviously it will be more difficult with the safc 2 to achieve the perfect afr's because as your said attempting to go leaner, would result in the ignition timing advancing due to the way the safc 2 works so would have to try compromise and get as close as possible.

I have read your posts so far and they have been great to read and learn from so thanks for that :-). Please keep the advice and posts comming as I am willing to read and learn as alotta people so far seem very clued on this forums compared to others.

[paulr33]

just buy the powerfc

[K-LESS]

I will do if im not happy with how the safc 2 turns out, Will most probably do nistune since I already have a z32 ecu. But yeah in the mean time would be great to hear advice from people that have tune their cars themselves to get some advice, expecially if they have tuned a safc themselves before.

[Tangles]

z32 afm, Bosch 040 fuel pump, stock injectors, apexi safc2 + sitc combo, sliding performance highflow turbo, auto awd rb25 - had over 220kw.

Changed to gt3076r, 450cc injectors & Aem fic/8 (like emanage ultimate) - 250kw.

Forged bottom end being worked on currently & looking for a few more kws.

If you get a safc I encourage you to add an apexi sitc to aid in controlling the tune...

[Don Dada]

I have been there and as mentioned before its a juggling act to get it to work properly.

What happens is when you get the tune ok for like a dyno style run(putting it in 4th and flooring it from 2000rpm) that tune is not ideal for say part throttle, high rpm coming into boost...it usually pings its ass off

So its a whole balancing act where you have to adjust cas timing,fuel pressure and boost + the tune to get it to work OK and I see no way possible you'll get 220rwkw with it considering the oem ecu goes berzerk at 10psi with the stock turbo.

If you want to use the safc, it should be good for about 190ish rwkw with stock turbo at 11-12psi with a safe tune...if not get a pfc/nistune. I have pfc now and still use the safc2.....strictly for kock detection tho. It works very good at that actually, once you set it up properly

[K-LESS]

I have been there and as mentioned before its a juggling act to get it to work properly.

What happens is when you get the tune ok for like a dyno style run(putting it in 4th and flooring it from 2000rpm) that tune is not ideal for say part throttle, high rpm coming into boost...it usually pings its ass off

So its a whole balancing act where you have to adjust cas timing,fuel pressure and boost + the tune to get it to work OK and I see no way possible you'll get 220rwkw with it considering the oem ecu goes berzerk at 10psi with the stock turbo.

If you want to use the safc, it should be good for about 190ish rwkw with stock turbo at 11-12psi with a safe tune...if not get a pfc/nistune. I have pfc now and still use the safc2.....strictly for kock detection tho. It works very good at that actually, once you set it up properly

This is good to know. So were you running a adjustable fuel pressure regulator as well, and adjusting base ignition timing using the cas? And you just used the safc 2 knock detection function to detect knock? What kinda numbers are indications of knock on the safc 2?

So it sounds like you saying that for full throttle tuning the safc 2 is ok but its tuning part throttle at high rpm's the engine was knocking a bit?

This is good, I am interested to hear more :-)