Please Look At My Rb3025 Tune And Give Me Your Pov

[urtwhistle]

Hi guys, I'm having some issues with my new Rb30 that I have just rebuilt. When ever I hit 4000rpm and pull WOT it starts missing, whether I go WOT from 2000rpm or slowly ease it upto 4000 and breifly go WOT it still misses.

Please see the attached Power FC .DAT file, a data log, and screen shots of map watch.

10.zip

The attached tune was from my first rb30 before it did a big end which made 370rwhp.

The specs are NEO head, standard cams, GT3576 turbo.

The only things that I can think of that have changed is that it now has higher compression from having 20thou taken off the deck height, therefore 0 deck height.

Timing could be slightly out.

I noticed that the tune had the VTC setting was set at 7400. I have changed that to 4700. (maybe I should set it back to 7400 until its retuned)

It appears to be leaner in the cruise and part throttle sections of the map and rich as all hell in the higher load sections.

1 odd thing I would like to point out is that on the screen shot of the load map trace. it has some cells that are highlighted but no values.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

regards

Chris

[Guilt-Toy]

STOP.

take the car to your tuner.

I'm done.

[Dale FZ1]

When ever I hit 4000rpm and pull WOT it starts missing, whether I go WOT from 2000rpm or slowly ease it upto 4000 and breifly go WOT it still misses.

Consider the rate of throttle change as you go WOT - might be the accel enrich values giving it a load of fuel that can't burn and causes momentary misfire. Also attention to the simple things - new engine, new spark plugs and suitably gapped. Clean coil packs that are known good units.

The only things that I can think of that have changed is that it now has higher compression from having 20thou taken off the deck height, therefore 0 deck height.

Something I'd consider fairly important - do you know what the CR is? Neo heads are reputedly running smaller chambers, so the combination of head, pistons (what spec?), and decked block may have implications for what you should target with this engine.

Timing could be slightly out.

Absolute number one job to start with is make sure your base timing is correct before you attempt to tune the thing. I'd consider shrinking the whole ignition map by 2-3 degrees while you play with fuelling. Especially if you aren't sure where the engine sits with CR.

It appears to be leaner in the cruise and part throttle sections of the map and rich as all hell in the higher load sections.

The cruise area of a map is actually quite small, and really only needs target AFR of 14.9-15.0 It looks way too lean in way too many cells for my liking. In the 2000rpm range it's almost ridiculously lean.

Looks like you should be progressively putting a good deal more fuel into the sections as it's coming into boost. At load point 8 I'd be targeting 13.2 - 13.5 AFR, and at point 10 more like 12.8-13.0. Then quickly down into 12.2 by point 15, and 11.8-12.0 anywhere below that.

Sit down and have a good look at your target AFR in the various load and engine speed ranges. Do you have access to the fuel map correction spreadsheet/calculator? Too little fuel will cause as many issues as too much, but just different ones. Don't be afraid to have a go, but you may need to get a better handle on what is required.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Dale FZ1

[DVS JEZ]

Have u checked/ changed ur spark plugs?

[The Dan]

STOP.

Read the second post.....do as he says

I'm done.

[(OO)Firty Free(OO)]

Is it just me or is that running way to lean on that data log file?

[urtwhistle]

See here's the thing, that tune was done by a very very reputable tuner here in the west and not me. The car has barely been driven since the motor went in.

And seriously comments like the below message are completely useless. When I asked for a POV I was hinting towards a constructive POV.

"STOP.Read the second post.....do as he says I'm done "

The car IS going to a tuner, just not the same 1 as the 1st tune. But like any normal person I wanted to put some km's on the clock and make sure it wasn't going dump all of it's oil on their floor.

The car has not been taken over 4500rpm since the rebuild for obvious reasons. and in theory the tune should not have been too far off between the new and old motor as there has only been a minor change in builds.

DALE to answer your questions.

Consider the rate of throttle change as you go WOT - might be the accel enrich values giving it a load of fuel that can't burn and causes momentary misfire. Also attention to the simple things - new engine, new spark plugs and suitably gapped. Clean coil packs that are known good units.

The spark plugs are good old NGK copper's and had about 1000k's on them whilst in the old motor and gapped at abou 1- 0.9mm, coils were cleaned whilst the motor was apart. I swapped the coils out for a spare set whilst on the old motor and they were fine at that point. The head was left completely untouched between the 2 motors.

I will pull the plugs out and replace them for a new set since there so cheap.

Something I'd consider fairly important - do you know what the CR is? Neo heads are reputedly running smaller chambers, so the combination of head, pistons (what spec?), and decked block may have implications for what you should target with this engine.

Mahle 8.5:1 pistons, I beleive the compression would be close to 9:1 with the decked block and the neo head. The compression is where I think part of the issue is but not completely.

The base timing was set correctly to what I was reading logging in FCEDIT but will double check just incase. if it is wrong then I will fix it and log the car again. If not then I will remove 2/3 degree's like mentioned. What about VTC setting, was that set wrong from the start? I would have throught that it should have been 4700 not 7400

Quote

It appears to be leaner in the cruise and part throttle sections of the map and rich as all hell in the higher load sections.

The cruise area of a map is actually quite small, and really only needs target AFR of 14.9-15.0 It looks way too lean in way too many cells for my liking. In the 2000rpm range it's almost ridiculously lean.

Looks like you should be progressively putting a good deal more fuel into the sections as it's coming into boost. At load point 8 I'd be targeting 13.2 - 13.5 AFR, and at point 10 more like 12.8-13.0. Then quickly down into 12.2 by point 15, and 11.8-12.0 anywhere below that.

Sit down and have a good look at your target AFR in the various load and engine speed ranges. Do you have access to the fuel map correction spreadsheet/calculator? Too little fuel will cause as many issues as too much, but just different ones. Don't be afraid to have a go, but you may need to get a better handle on what is required.

This is also some thing that I was concerned about. I thought it was massivly too lean from what I would have expected. What calculator are you refering to? I was going to write a simple spread sheet, but if some 1 has already written 1. I would love you to point me in tthe direction of it. My last question which might be obvious to other's Why would I be getting blank cells on my load log. or should I just ignore that part.

[The Dan]

See here's the thing, that tune was done by a very very reputable tuner here in the west and not me. The car has barely been driven since the motor went in.

And seriously comments like the below message are completely useless. When I asked for a POV I was hinting towards a constructive POV.

"STOP.Read the second post.....do as he says I'm done "

The car IS going to a tuner, just not the same 1 as the 1st tune. But like any normal person I wanted to put some km's on the clock and make sure it wasn't going dump all of it's oil on their floor.

The car has not been taken over 4500rpm since the rebuild for obvious reasons. and in theory the tune should not have been too far off between the new and old motor as there has only been a minor change in builds.

DALE to answer your questions.

Consider the rate of throttle change as you go WOT - might be the accel enrich values giving it a load of fuel that can't burn and causes momentary misfire. Also attention to the simple things - new engine, new spark plugs and suitably gapped. Clean coil packs that are known good units.

The spark plugs are good old NGK copper's and had about 1000k's on them whilst in the old motor and gapped at abou 1- 0.9mm, coils were cleaned whilst the motor was apart. I swapped the coils out for a spare set whilst on the old motor and they were fine at that point. The head was left completely untouched between the 2 motors.

I will pull the plugs out and replace them for a new set since there so cheap.

Something I'd consider fairly important - do you know what the CR is? Neo heads are reputedly running smaller chambers, so the combination of head, pistons (what spec?), and decked block may have implications for what you should target with this engine.

Mahle 8.5:1 pistons, I beleive the compression would be close to 9:1 with the decked block and the neo head. The compression is where I think part of the issue is but not completely.

The base timing was set correctly to what I was reading logging in FCEDIT but will double check just incase. if it is wrong then I will fix it and log the car again. If not then I will remove 2/3 degree's like mentioned. What about VTC setting, was that set wrong from the start? I would have throught that it should have been 4700 not 7400

Quote

It appears to be leaner in the cruise and part throttle sections of the map and rich as all hell in the higher load sections.

The cruise area of a map is actually quite small, and really only needs target AFR of 14.9-15.0 It looks way too lean in way too many cells for my liking. In the 2000rpm range it's almost ridiculously lean.

Looks like you should be progressively putting a good deal more fuel into the sections as it's coming into boost. At load point 8 I'd be targeting 13.2 - 13.5 AFR, and at point 10 more like 12.8-13.0. Then quickly down into 12.2 by point 15, and 11.8-12.0 anywhere below that.

Sit down and have a good look at your target AFR in the various load and engine speed ranges. Do you have access to the fuel map correction spreadsheet/calculator? Too little fuel will cause as many issues as too much, but just different ones. Don't be afraid to have a go, but you may need to get a better handle on what is required.

This is also some thing that I was concerned about. I thought it was massivly too lean from what I would have expected. What calculator are you refering to? I was going to write a simple spread sheet, but if some 1 has already written 1. I would love you to point me in tthe direction of it. My last question which might be obvious to other's Why would I be getting blank cells on my load log. or should I just ignore that part.

You have a different tune/setup now. It needs to go to a tuner to be corrected to the new setup. Guilt Toy is completely correct in what he said. If you aren't tuning yourself or don't know how to tune it yourself, then it is probably not safe to mess with it. Get it to anyone with a dyno and tell them you just want a safe run in map which shouldn't take them any longer than an hour.

EDIT - ok had a look at the file I can see and it seems like you have a wideband on it. Are you trying to learn to tune it yourself just for the run in?

[urtwhistle]

Hey mate, yeah I have a wide band and an EGT hooked up to it also. But I have just unhooked the EGT as it was occasionly give me odd AFR readings. Well to tell you the trueth I bought all this gear to datalog as I was a little sceptical with how the car was tuned and running. I'm not 100% sure about what I'm doing in some area's hence why I'm going about this in a very cautious way but I still want to know enough that I can diganose problems when they occur in future.

[The Dan]

ok, well nothing wrong with having a crack at it yourself if you have the right gear. Just doing run in numbers is easy as so if you take small steps and make small changes as well as save as you go, you can't really go wrong. Even block tuning will make it run ok so just select 2-3 row sections and make them slighty richer or leaner where you think it needs more or less. You will quickly feel the changes you make but don't go too far obviously as it can be risky when you have no experience.

I would avoid going over 4k until you've done 500ks anyway, that will give you time to play with it and learn as you go. Make sure you save the tune and keep it safe before you start. You can always load the old one back in

[Room42]

Mate I had a look at all the details of your tune. I would make significant changes to the ign map. There is as much as 10 degrees too much timing in some areas. Plenty of areas with nowhere near enough timing also. I would also change the afm settings. I would change the inj in many areas but not a hell of a lot. Is your boost control supposed to be on?

I've pm'd you my number. Feel free to give me a call to have a chat.

[urtwhistle]

Cheers for the heads up Nathan, I'll try and pull my finger out and give you a buzz shortly. as my current map is saved onto my thumb drive in the car. but I'm glad its not just me thinking the tune was rooted right from the begining

[urtwhistle]

Massive thanks goes to Nathan AkA mr ROOM42. who sent me his maps and talked me through a few area's that were giving me grief.

So I have Rescaled my maps in Copilot for a bit more resolution and Nathan's to match. dropped his IGN map and airflow curves in to my computer and BAM runs wickedly better straight off the bat. now I'm confident that I'm not going to kill the motor whilst running it in and can start planning on getting it fine tuned later........

YAY

[DVS JEZ]

Good to hear.

Wht do u mean about airflow curves

[Room42]

Good to hear.

Wht do u mean about airflow curves

He is using a z32 afm. In his settings, instead of everything being at 100% a few of them were at 95% etc.

My actual z32 voltage curve is standard. I personally prefer to have everything at 100% and tune the actual map.

I sent him my entire tune. I'm not sure if he used the ign map or the whole thing or other parts of it as well. I told him that although the ign map will be miles better it will probably need some taken out up top. Also I made it clear that the fuel map may be totally unsuitable. I said quite a few times that he cant give it a hiding yet. It still needs to be thoroughly checked for correct afr's and knock.

The poor guy has taken it in to be tuned several times and spun a bearing on his last engine from having a crappy tune.

[urtwhistle]

Hey Jez, I probably called it by the wrong name but I'll upload my current and the tune prior to adjusting so you compare and see what I'm refering to.

New Folder (2).zip

[urtwhistle]

amongst many many other things Nathan, and technically there was 5 big ends and 4 mains that were wrecked, the big ends were completely delaminated.

I can't honestly blame it all on the tune though as the machine shop that did the block for me the 1st time also line bored it but line bored it 13thou out end for end. IE higher at the rear if the block to the front. and I on;y picked up on that after it had failed and re machined the whole block for the 2nd time and prepped it for over 50tho OS pistons and thought hey why not give it a bit more compression. Then whilst measuring the deck heights noticed the height difference. But at that stage I thought the block must have been skimmed incorrectly, but it was actually the crank tunnel that was out.

Soooo I after loosing interest 3 times on this car in a 6 month period I thought why the hell not start with a completely new block and get it machined by another machine shop.

Then I stupidly ( not stupid really) I let my Auto sparky mate look at my car whilest the motor was out and he almost cryed at the mess that was my engine bay. He proceeded to rewire half of the engine bay with Deutch plug as every thing the gas installer touched he had wrecked from twisting and taping and generally not knowing what the hell he was doing. PS the Gas injection setup is currently unplugged so no that isn't what is causing all the issues.

I could write a novel on all the bull shit that has happened with this car and what supposed professionals have done to it. And so far from what I can tell everything that either mates or NON professional people have done is still working and not cost me a cent. other than parts of course.

MORAL OF THE STORY : Do it your self then you only have your self to blame

[The Dan]

Rule #1 - If your machinist wants to line bore an RB block, go to another machinist

Rule #2 - Always ask on here if you aren't sure of something that is being done. A lot of old mechs at hand and a lot more track racers around that can give you solid advice.

I try not to give advice on forums about how to tune your car or other things where experience is really a necessity, or any other job that might require special tools or is at an experience level higher than backyard. It's too easy for someone to f**k it up and blame the guy giving the advice. It's good that you got it sorted but don't lose faith in the professionals, just make sure you are using the right ones. Depending on where you are, a lot of people here can recommend no BS places for you to go to

[Gerg_R31]

Line bores should only be done if the tunel is out of alignment, new caps, or new studs which involves grinding the caps then trying them down, and making the tunel back to oem specs

sounds line the machinist didn't line bore it properly. and he didn't dummy assemble before grinding the block

[urtwhistle]

Cheers for your help guys. Yeah well thats the thing I told the machine shop ( a very reputable 1, who apparently had built heaps of big power RB's) to basicly go to town on the block the first time as it was the 1st Rb motor that either my father or I had ever touched. I stupidly told them that if the tunnel needs doing, then do it.

As much as I sound like I'm bitching and moaning (which I am) it has been an extremely educational and expensive process. And with what I know now, I think I could safely build another Rb30det motor for probably half the price of what the 1st cost me. I just don't want to tho

As you said Mr Elite, it's knowing who the professionals are. Alot of people in the west claim to be and charge the professional rate. But when it comes to it some times you end up with the apprentice doing the work on your car. Which don't get me wrong isn't a problem aslong as there supervised and there work is checked over.

END OF RANT

If any 1 knows of some 1 who would love a freshly machined motor (but needs line boring) they can have it for a very very good price. It would be perfect for a drysumped motor. I personally would hesitate putting a normal oil pump on it now that the crank has been moved upwards by as much as it would need to be. Thats if you didn't slot the dowl holes on the oil pump and rear main seal to compensate for it (which I think is opening you up for too much to go wrong with the known exploding oil pump history).

The three things I fell in love with over the last 6 months are. My dads 2 post car hoist, Toyota BLACK sump sealant (that stuff will seal nearly any thing) and finally my mates engine brace. It goes across the top of the engine bay from strut to strut where you hook it onto the front engine sling point, take the weight off the engine mounts. Then drop the whole front cross member. It makes fixing a leaky sump seal easy as pie to do with out removing the motor.