Oil Control For My Rb

[kitto]

Gday all, i'll try and keep this as short as possible whilst giving all the necessary info.

I know quite a bit about oil control in an RB, this isn't another stupid N1 oil pump question. This is specific to my needs and useful info/input will be greatly appreciated.

I'm currently collecting parts to build a very insane RB26 for my R31. This will take probably 18 - 24 months to have fully complete ready to drop in the engine bay and start.

In the mean time, i got so itchy, i felt i had to get back out racing. So for a 'temporary' engine i have bought a 40,000km RB25 NEO.

The car is used for flat knacker circuit. Its previous engine was just an RB20 with the usual bits and pieces. It had an oil cooler, remote mount filter and a thermostat for the oil cooler. I was using mineral 10w40 (spanks myself) with the sump overfilled a litre. At skyline nationals last year i spun a bearing, caused by what looks to be oil starvation. I pulled the engine down, every single bearing including the mains had starved. So obviously lots of oil in the head, minimal in the sump, and with my driving around corners and very late braking, obviously it has surged and done the damage.

Now i dont want a repeat of this episode again (but with RB's you never know...), so i'm going to do whats necessary to keep this NEO happy. Even if it is a temporary engine, i'd like it to be still alive when it comes out.

I've got a few options in my head that i'm thinking about doing. EVERY option will have at the minimum; ASR sump and a very large oil cooler with most likely an accumulator with much good quality oil. Of course there will be many different combinations to do, but seeing as this is a temporary engine, i wont be doing anything crazy such as drilling out the block drains.

Option 1: Fit large baffled sump, put the engine in, hook up large oil cooler and away we go.

Option 2: Same as option one, but fit some head to block drains

Option 3: Same as option 1/2, but fit an Ati Balancer to help preserve the oil pump - Although i believe this may not be necessary if i'm keeping the factory pump, As its a very low km balancer and i'm not going to be revving it to 9,000.

Option 4: Same as option 1-3 but fit a Tomei oil pump to almost delete possible pump failure. This presents a new issue of pumping even more oil into the head. Short nose crank is also a major concern driving a Tomei pump.

Option 5: Same as 1-4, but pull the head off, fit a 1.1 - 1.3 mm oil restrictor, face the head, metal head gasket and ARP studs at the same time.

Option 6: Same as 1-5, but pull the crank out, fit grub screws to the plugged oil galleries and fit a drive collar.

Those options are what i have come up with, i'm sure some of you will suggest your own options, or a combination of what i've suggested.

For the record, i already have the Tomei pump and the ATI balancer. So they are not an on top cost.

Cost does play a part in this to a fair degree, being a temporary engine i dont want to throw stupid amounts of money at it. I need to find that reliable sweet spot. I've already had people tell me just throw it in, but i've experienced and seen SO many people have oiling issues for me to just not even consider that idea.

Your input will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[The Bogan]

Restrictors, that is all.

edit; and oil cooler as it will be used for new motor, FWIW i never had a problem till I had a new motor put in which had a Tomei pump, even with head drains and a return to sump on the catch can.

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/topic/110680-oil-control-in-rbs-for-circuit-drag-or-drift/

Edited November 15, 2011 by mlr

[kitto]

Restrictors, that is all.

edit; and oil cooler as it will be used for new motor, FWIW i never had a problem till I had a new motor put in which had a Tomei pump, even with head drains and a return to sump on the catch can.

http://www.skylinesa...-drag-or-drift/

I can understand fitting a restrictor being a good idea. But why not fit a large sump as well?

I have read that thread a few times before, good read.

[koe]

I can understand fitting a restrictor being a good idea. But why not fit a large sump as well?

I have read that thread a few times before, good read.

a an8 line in the rear of the cylinder head

This helps drain the head

Restrictors are a most

There is info on what size all around the net

Oil sump is a very good idea to mod.

Not for more capacity but to keep the oil where its needed

Usually with oil coolers you have to add more oil to the equation

Pm me if you need to see what type of sump mod you will be looking for

[R31Nismoid]

Issue is you using the Tomei pump and the volume. Use a N1 and you'll be fine.

If stock sump'd GTR's (300-350rwkw) on semi comps have run 1.20s @ Sandown with nothing more than a litre overfill, N1 pumps & restrictors - and not spin bearings... Good enough for what you want.

Obviously an oil cooler is a good move, and just keep the rev's sane for a stock tolerance motor. Should be fine, plenty of others tracking with 250-300rwkw for a few years without issues.

The latest "fad" seems to be external oil drains. You would've hardly seen anyone using one before about 18 months ago, so just ignore that as well as they are just a bandaid for poor oil control as part of a build (restrictors & enlarged returns using higher volume pumps).

Plus you aren't from NSW where legendary Sump Baffle Syndrome runs rife, so you've got that advantage on your side as well.

[KiwiRS4T]

Have you read this thread: http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/topic/110680-oil-control-in-rbs-for-circuit-drag-or-drift/page__hl__sk+oil+control ??

Having read it twice despite some disagreements a pattern emerges:

Fit restrictors as per the table dependant on which pump you are using and whether you have solid lifters / vct (or whatever you decide is right) but do fit them ($10 ea or per pair).

Drill out and or relieve the oil returns in the head (nothing crazy about that and no cost if you do it before you install the engine)

Then there is the question of the fitting at the back of the head. Is it a drain or a vent?

My vote is that its a vent - particularly if you have already done 1 and 2 above so I won't be putting a fitting on the back of the head but I will be putting a vent from the rhs of the sump esp since RB30s seem more prone to spewing oil and the theory is that pressure build up in the sump is a contributing factor ( although 1 and 2 above may take care of it).

Bigger sump and oil cooler seem sensible for a track car and will probably mean stock radiator will cope fine.

[kitto]

Some good replies guys.

So fit a restrictor then, that shall be done. Would you bother fitting MH and ARP studs while its apart?

Im under the impression that the Neo comes standard with an N1 pump. Is this true?

As to the balancer, just use the stock one or throw the ATI unit on?

Im not in NSW no, however, next year I plan to be there hitting some of the tracks with any luck.

Ill be doing a sump and oil cooler no ifs or buts. There is no disadvantage apart from cost really.

[koe]

The worst enemy is heat

delete the oem oil cooler from the block using a Datsun 510 oil filter stud

Will require you to tap some water hoses tho

[kitto]

Well thats the only issue ive found with this engine.

Is that the oem cooler/warmer has been seeping water over time.

I would assume deleting it is a smart idea.

Ill just change it for an rb20 aluminium filter adapter

[jangles]

If it's just a temp engine so to speak

Oil restrictors,

Enlarged sump with fittings for,

Decent catch tank/breather setup(can also be used on new engine)

Stock HG and bolts should be fine for up to ~5-600hp depending on how much power you really want to run will depend on how long it lasts ultimately. 24 months is quite a while

[r33_racer]

Good size breather can (1.5-2L capacity), I would definitely do the sump if you are going to be pushing the car on semis/slicks, a -12AN vent from inlet side of sump above oil level to breather can and if you really want run a drain from catch can to exhaust side of sump, if using std pump dont worry about the restrictor. Dont worry about the MLS headgasket and studs, stick with standard and bolts.

[KiwiRS4T]

Oh and BTW use a quality synthetic oil such as Motul etc.

[kitto]

There will of course be a large catch can installed. A vent from the sump definitely seems to be a smart idea. I dont know if i will plumb the catch can back into the sump. I've seen some funky oil being pumped into peoples catch cans before. Not something you'd want to go back into the sump. I suppose not having it run back to the sump is a good idea. If you have a sight hose, you can actually see if your engine is pumping oil out of the breathers or not.

Large sump will be done.

I dont really want to pull the head off, but i will to fit a restrictor.

Good oil will be used, yes. Unsure of what viscosity and brand as yet. But i'll look into that later.

[r33_racer]

If the can is plumbed back into the sump there wont be any funky stuff going back. The oil will just do a loop, though if everything is setup correctly you wont need the drain anyway, thats just a bandaid fix/precaution. Other thing I forgot to mention is to have atleast 2 x big breathers on the can, atleast 32mm inlets. You want the can to not become a restriction, needs to be free flowing.

Oils are up in the air. Some people run synthetic, some run semi and others straight mineral and have no dramas oil wise. You would have to do constant oil analysis reports after every track day to see how the oil is handling the load and slowly breaking down to find out which one works the best with your setup (you might find a cheaper semi or mineral oil will be fine for your engine). More often then not most people change the oil after several track days anyway, even though the oil is still good enough to keep using(usually just out of precaution). Why spend big dollars on oil that is changed frequently when a cheaper semi or mineral oil will work fine with the same short intervals. The cost of oil adds up quite quickly, even more so in race cars when you have big sumps with oil coolers and external filters with -10/-12 lines everywhere adding more capacity to the system, quite easily upto 10L, so you need to buy double what you usually would. The top end synthetic stuff is already stupidly exxy and some of them arent even compatible with E85 which is quickly becoming the fuel of choice for track cars. Do some research and look into it before buying the most expensive oil you can get purely because you think it will be best for your specific setup.

[kitto]

Yes i'll have a huge catch can for sure. I'm still working out a design for one.

I'm not one to do things by halves, so what will be done to this engine, will be done right!

Yes i need to research oils and what i'm going to use.

10L of synthetic oil is going to be expensive. Royal Purple seems to be a very superior oil, but fark is it expensive.

[The Bogan]

I use 10w 40 whatever semi synth is on special and change it before every track day or 5000k, it never gets to 5000k though, only spend money on things you will be using with your new motor though, a sump vent is good, reason being alot of heavy plant use then to reduce sump pressure which in turns allows the engine to rev easier as its not trying to push against positive pressure.

Mine runs return to sump catch can, head drain on the hot side, vent to the cold side and a remote restricter set up which is a story unto itself.

As long as you can control the flow to the head you should be fine, me if I was you, with your Tomei pump I would keep VCT?, block the front and use 1 x 1mm restrictor at the rear like in the Sydney kid thread.

I would fill it 1 ltr over full, and then check the can regularly for oil.

I wouldnt do any other mods as you will not be using any of the parts on a 26 build.

Then trash it till our new motor is ready.

[kitto]

I'll be keeping VCT yes, its a good thing to have. No reason in removing it as i'm not changing cams or putting on adjustable cam gears.

The 10w40 i used in my RB20 was so bloody hot, WITH an oil cooler. Oil temp was around the 110-120C range on a 23 degree day. So id like to use a much better oil that is more stable at higher temperatures.

Remote adjustable oil feed to the head just looks too messy and tricky for this engine.

Vented sump will be done, exactly how i'm going to do it and do the catch can setup will come a little later. As i'll have to work out where things are going etc.

Well ok, is it really worth the $1k for a properly built ASR sump, or would a $400 extended and gated sump do the trick? I'm prepard to spend the $1k on a sump, it will have reasonable resale value when the engine comes out.

[The Bogan]

Well ok, is it really worth the $1k for a properly built ASR sump, or would a $400 extended and gated sump do the trick? I'm prepard to spend the $1k on a sump, it will have reasonable resale value when the engine comes out.

I would save the big dollar sump for the 26, just get a fitting or 2 welded to your stock 25 sump at the most, me I never had a problem with my stock 25 sump and stock oil pump on a stock motor, my problems started when I tried to run a Tomie pump with stock restrictors.

And you can have some mild cams in there as the VCT is tunable to a point, mine does anyway.

[R31Nismoid]

Oils are up in the air. Some people run synthetic, some run semi and others straight mineral and have no dramas oil wise. You would have to do constant oil analysis reports after every track day to see how the oil is handling the load and slowly breaking down to find out which one works the best with your setup (you might find a cheaper semi or mineral oil will be fine for your engine). More often then not most people change the oil after several track days anyway, even though the oil is still good enough to keep using(usually just out of precaution). Why spend big dollars on oil that is changed frequently when a cheaper semi or mineral oil will work fine with the same short intervals. The cost of oil adds up quite quickly, even more so in race cars when you have big sumps with oil coolers and external filters with -10/-12 lines everywhere adding more capacity to the system, quite easily upto 10L, so you need to buy double what you usually would. The top end synthetic stuff is already stupidly exxy and some of them arent even compatible with E85 which is quickly becoming the fuel of choice for track cars. Do some research and look into it before buying the most expensive oil you can get purely because you think it will be best for your specific setup.

+1 to the above. Great post.

It's a killer when eating up basically 10L of oil ever change. Quickly adds up indeed if you are using $$$ stuff and changing it based on precaution rather than any actual reason (as the oil would still do another 1-2 trackdays easily).

Previous owner of my GTR changed it after every track day as a precaution which is a good example of over worried.

[R31Nismoid]

I would save the big dollar sump for the 26, just get a fitting or 2 welded to your stock 25 sump at the most, me I never had a problem with my stock 25 sump and stock oil pump on a stock motor, my problems started when I tried to run a Tomie pump with stock restrictors.

Yeah as i said earlier - the problem will be because of the Tomei pump.

Go back to a lower volume pump (realistically you don't need the Tomei one on a stock motor) and be the much better for it.