New Toymota "sports" Car

[Cowboy1600]

I've no fear of change. Hell, I thrive on change. But change for changes sake? Not so much.

And your example of sticking with an L series is terrible*. I have no problem with updating and advancing, but to go from straight 4s and 6s to a boxer made by a different car company is ridiculous.

also the boxer engine is a good choice for the lowest centre of gravity and best weight distribution. an inline 4 or 6 would make it too front heavy.

Rubbish. Show me a production car series anywhere in the world where boxers compete against Vs or inline engines and win regularly. In Aust they get humped by Evos, Falcons and Commonwhores. The only place they do win is in the Porsche Cup.

If 4s and 6s are "too front heavy" why are they in pretty much everything? Why are some of the greatest product engines ever made I4s and 6s? Can't say the same about a boxer.

And aside from specs, which are, well, not even close, this and the AE86 have little to nothing in common. Actually I'd like to change that to nothing in common. You can't even say they are both Toyotas.

[gregor]

Had a lot of interest in this car prior to announcing it will be NA. 200hp would be ok if it were at the wheels but as a manufacturer rated figure is a bit dull. Here's hoping subaru release a turbo version, maybe under the STi label.

Ive never seen so many people on car forums defending poor power output. Maybe toyota has them conditioned too well with sticker and bodykit special 'sports' models.

[driftism]

Lol not in Australia, you can bet the other markets will have a sharper price than here

its true we pay a higher price due to taxes and what not but what ever the price is, its got to be relative to any other cars available in Australia. take the standard WRX for example - its around 40k and has 200klw, turbo, awd and 4 door practicality. so it would have to be atleased 10k cheaper to be a reasonable alternative. 30k for this car is quite reasonable. the 370z is 80k - so in terms of price its not even in the same catagory.

Rubbish. Show me a production car series anywhere in the world where boxers compete against Vs or inline engines and win regularly. In Aust they get humped by Evos, Falcons and Commonwhores. The only place they do win is in the Porsche Cup.

if you only have one car manufacturer making boxer engines against everyone else with Vs and inlines its not far to judge by number of races won alone. There are plenty of WRXs winning races in time attack and rally all over the world.

If 4s and 6s are "too front heavy" why are they in pretty much everything? Why are some of the greatest product engines ever made I4s and 6s? Can't say the same about a boxer.

4s and 6s would be too front heavy in THIS car, have you seen where the front strut towers are in the engine bay? Check it

In other applications 4s and 6s are ideal but they wanted this car to have the lowest SoG and good weight distribution. also the 1965 sport 800, another car they said influenced this one, had a boxer engine.

And aside from specs, which are, well, not even close, this and the AE86 have little to nothing in common. Actually I'd like to change that to nothing in common. You can't even say they are both Toyotas.

they are both small, light, RWD hatchbacks with good balance and cheaper than any alternative. (most likely)

what is it exactly about the ae86 you find so amazing that this new car doesn't have? it just seems you like to hate on subaru - which if you do then that's fine but there's not much point discussing it if your gonna hate on them for no real reason.

[Messiah]

^ this +11ty

Simple thing is, this is designed as a small well balanced car, with the main goal of handling well.

I can't think of a current Toyota 4 cyl that would suit a sporting application. So why not grab one off subi? Also subi contributed to the interior and will sell their own version OS.

Power to weight on this is better than an r33gtst and only slightly worse than a gtt.

Now also remember that for all the coolness of our lines, they do have a tendency to be nose heavy and under steer some.

Also, has anyone stopped to wonder what the modding potential is with this car? Could a~30k car +10k in mods turn into something special?

[On Edge]

styling looks like a 370z gone wrong

[gregor]

Power to weight on this is better than an r33gtst and only slightly worse than a gtt.

Also, has anyone stopped to wonder what the modding potential is with this car? Could a~30k car +10k in mods turn into something special?

1. Slightly worse than a stock turbo car which is just a boost controller away from more power. And this car wont have the added torque of a turbo.

2. Modding potential probably a fair bit, BUT being NA those gains wont be cheap for what you get. It's yet to be seen how highly strung this engine is but with 12.5:1 CR a set up cams and exhaust could yield a nice result but where to from there? Switch to forced induction? you wont be able to run much boost with that CR so you'll need to spend more cash and then you have legal hassles, engineering and emissions, diminished resale and it goes on. If toyota wanted a true tuner car they should have started with a low boost turbo config. Not many people buy a brand new car to engine swap or do a big budget build on.

[Messiah]

Its true torque isnt an an easy fix, and whilst comment of a boost controller away from more power is mostly true, a 33gtst will only meet close to 34gtt figures with this done, to get more you start talking ecu's turbo's exhausts etc etc.

but i do agree with the nature of what your saying, turbo's do pack more potential.

Giving the new 86 some credit and the benefit of the doubt, if we were to mod it in the spirit if its design you wouldnt approach it the same way as you would a rwd skyline. Adding a turbo with low boost and an exhaust could make the car more than quick enough, the main focus would likely remain on handling and speed through corners.

i think given the general tendency of our mob to mod first and check legalities later that the consideration of legality is moot. and as for the talk of price, if the speculated price of ~30k turns out to be true, then you have a car with great handling a slightly worse off p/w ratio than your standard 1400kg 206kw j-spec car and a bunch of cash still up your sleeve.

In the hope that this car will respond well to mods i'm happy to go out and say that i kind of welcome this. the current crop of cars out of japan dont really lend themselves to affordable modification, the r35 will take 10 years or so to reach close to equivalent to r34 gtr's price wise. The affordable end is a little lacking with 350gt's costing alot to turbo, m35 stags being stuck in auto (atleast for 4wd versions) and the vq30det offerings not being what i would call "nimble".

So i agree, its not a new supra (which if it was most of us couldnt afford) and they havent ressurrected the 3sgte, but i'm taking this as the toyota mx5, it could be fun.

[driftism]

just some more food for though in regards to pricing in Australia -

yarris - 15k

corolla - 20k

camry - 30k

aurion - 35k

if they can sell a family sedan with a V6 for 35k then this 86 should be in the low 30s or it wouldn't make any sense from a marketing perspective. Keep in mind these are all rrp so when dealers have sales the prices will drop even further.

with that sort of price think of the money you will have left over compared to any other spots car. that money can go towards mods which im pretty sure will make it faster if thats what you want. you can by a EJ25 for a couple of grand for starters.

[Cowboy1600]

if you only have one car manufacturer making boxer engines against everyone else with Vs and inlines its not far to judge by number of races won alone. There are plenty of WRXs winning races in time attack and rally all over the world.

Why don't more manufacturers make boxers? Because they are inferior, that's why. And show me a PRODUCTION BASED class where boxers rule. Since 1990 Subaru have won 3 out of 21 WRC titles and I can't find resutls which suggest that the WTA WRXs do much.

4s and 6s would be too front heavy in THIS car, have you seen where the front strut towers are in the engine bay? Check it

And do you think maybe the strut towers were put there BECAUSE of the boxer engine? As for heavy, what garbage. The difference in CoG would be negligible in anything but a balls to the wall race car. As for weight, the boxer is likely to be heavier than an all alloy I4.

In other applications 4s and 6s are ideal but they wanted this car to have the lowest SoG and good weight distribution. also the 1965 sport 800, another car they said influenced this one, had a boxer engine.

Bullshit. Go do some basic Googling and you will find a myriad of references to the AE86. References to the 800 are solely around the fact that Toyota used a boxer in a car in 65. That is all. This car is in no way, shape or form a homage to the 800. Is the 800 a cult car? Nope. Is the AE86? Yep.

they are both small, light, RWD hatchbacks with good balance and cheaper than any alternative. (most likely)

Jesus, how about some research? The 86 is a coupe, not a hatchback. And it has a horozontally opposed 2.0L four, not an inline 1.6L four. Them's some pretty significant differences.

what is it exactly about the ae86 you find so amazing that this new car doesn't have? it just seems you like to hate on subaru - which if you do then that's fine but there's not much point discussing it if your gonna hate on them for no real reason.

I hate boxer engines. They are horrible things which belong in Kombi vans. Toyota build some simply phenomenal inline motors. Why on earth have they outsourced the engine in something designed to pay homage to one of the biggest cult classics ever made? It's a weak marketing ploy and it's very disappointing. They should have shoehorned the 2ZZ-GE into it. Or even better, what a perfect way to introduce a brand new engine which could power this in sporty form and then be rolled out across the Corolla and Yaris range in less sporty form?

The AE86 should not be triffiled with. It is a serious cult classic and stuffing up a modern homage is a grat way to detract from that. As a car enthusiast, I don't like it when car companies f**k up a classic.

[driftism]

im not sure if you're serious or not. do you really have so much hate for pistons going sideways instead of up and down that you can't see beyond you're own bias? you haven't given any real reason why the boxer engine is bad besides saying they are boat anchors and belong in vans - that's not proof that's opinion.

all i can gather is that you think the ae86 is a cult classic because it has an inline 4... all the reports from people who have actually driven the new car suggest it is very true to the original philosophy and a well balanced car

anyway, i guess we will have to agree to disagree and wait until it is released to see its true potential.

[Cowboy1600]

im not sure if you're serious or not. do you really have so much hate for pistons going sideways instead of up and down that you can't see beyond you're own bias? you haven't given any real reason why the boxer engine is bad besides saying they are boat anchors and belong in vans - that's not proof that's opinion.

all i can gather is that you think the ae86 is a cult classic because it has an inline 4... all the reports from people who have actually driven the new car suggest it is very true to the original philosophy and a well balanced car

anyway, i guess we will have to agree to disagree and wait until it is released to see its true potential.

If that's all you can take from what I've said, then perhaps your should leave the reading comprehension to someone else.

all the reports from people who have actually driven the new car suggest it is very true to the original philosophy and a well balanced car

Please, show me some of these reports. $100 says you don't, not because you can't be arsed but because they simply do not exist.

anyway, i guess we will have to agree to disagree and wait until it is released to see its true potential.

Wait, what? I thought we had a whole murder of reports on how totally like the car with which it shares nothing but a vague reference to name really is.

It's collective noun substitution time.

[babyskyline]

just some more food for though in regards to pricing in Australia -

yarris - 15k

corolla - 20k

camry - 30k

aurion - 35k

if they can sell a family sedan with a V6 for 35k then this 86 should be in the low 30s or it wouldn't make any sense from a marketing perspective. Keep in mind these are all rrp so when dealers have sales the prices will drop even further.

with that sort of price think of the money you will have left over compared to any other spots car. that money can go towards mods which im pretty sure will make it faster if thats what you want. you can by a EJ25 for a couple of grand for starters.

Comparing a family car that is mass produced for the common idiot to drive around in, ie older people, people with familys etc, like the aurion or camry, with a sports car that will be targetted towards a younger market is not even close to a decent comparison. The new toyota/subaru collaborative sports car will be priced accordingly to the other vehicles with which it will compete in the market with. I can tell you now it wont be as cheap as a few of you are hoping it will be.

All the info we have been given at the dealerships points to around the 45k but they havent put a definitive rrp on it as of yet from what we have been told.

[ryu1605]

Personally I really like the whole idea of it. i love the look and I'm not fussed it has a boxer engine. got to see the ft-86 II concept at the melbourne motor show this year and could barely keep my eyes off the thing.

but thats just me and i completely understand if other don't feel the same.

something i did find though is that it seems the subaru version will still be rear wheel drive >>> subaru BRZ

[boiracer]

deal with it, as long as the price is right this car should do well. i seriously doubt it will compete with the 370z...or was ever intended too. if the price is anywhere up as high as you guys seem to think then good luck in selling any.

the boxer is awesome for keeping COG down. and keeping the bonnet line lower. boxers are by no means ideal, but much better than a basic V6 PoS (GTR's etc obv dont fall into this category, due to alot of money spent developing it)........inline North-south engines are a dying breed unfortunately, as they take up far to much room that can be filled with upright terrible seating positions, short wheel bases, short bonnets, better visiblility....and apparently general user friendliness. so the boxer works well being only 2 cylinders long and still N-S layout.

sooooo not reading those essays, regardless of how valid some of your anti Kraut can engined comments are. rotary's technically suck aswell. but i and many other love them, and size wise make alot of sense.

bring on something different i say.

[driftism]

Please, show me some of these reports. $100 says you don't, not because you can't be arsed but because they simply do not exist.

i Googled toyota 86 and these were some of the first impressions, of people who have actually driven the car, that came up on the very first page:

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-news/first-drive-toyota-86-20111128-1o1vi.html

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/CBC5D97DC330F2A1CA2579550057167E

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2011/11/26/gallery-gt-gt-toyota-86-first-drive-preview.aspx

I'll PM you my bank details, thanks for the 100 bucks

[Iron Chef]

lol at the haters, seriously Cowboy your a fair f*cking whinger seeing you've never laid eyes on one let alone driven one.

Dino's account on Speedhunters (one of those reports you said didn't exist) says it all. Just because it makes reference to the AE86 in its name doesn't mean it's destroying the history. That's no more stupid than saying the R35 GT-R ruined the reputations of all the GT-Rs before it.

Toyota are forging their own path and making what everyone has been screaming out for since the demise of the S15 - a low-cost RWD sports car that can be used as a daily and punted around a track on weekends.

Toyota Oz have long been spouting a target sale price of $35K - even if it ends up closer to $40K it will become a cult classic here in Oz, as it will everywhere else. Remember that the S15 was more than $40K when it was released back in 2000, hell the first WRXs were considered performance bargains at $40K when they were released in 1994! If I don't get a chance to drive one in Japan, I'm gonna be banging down the door of my local Toyota dealer for a test drive when they get here.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Iron Chef

[babyskyline]

bring on something different i say.

exactly!!

[zebra]

Cough*

Subi Super GT version is better

[rgr34]

just seen a article on the subaru version it wont have 4wd or turbo either, very little subtle differences... badge engineering at its best lol...

i personally like the style of the ft86 and the use of the boxer engine, but have to agree that a turbo variant would of been ideal.. more torque required! who knows maybe they will have a limited run where they offer some sort of forced induction kit....

[zebra]

I dont doubt STi will get their hands on it, possibly a 2.0L turbo 4wd STi version in the next couple of years