E85/eflex And Oil Choice

[Piggaz]

I'm going e85 later this week and opted for sin 15. I usually run motul 300v. Will see how it goes I guess

I have a sump full of 300 V that I have done a track day, driven home from Vic and a few bits and pieces on. All up about 2000 kms. Gonna get it tested and see what it returns. I am yet to see 'jelly' like clumps of come out of my sump with 300 V and Ethanol based fuel like some claim.

[nisskid]

I'm going e85 later this week and opted for sin 15. I usually run motul 300v. Will see how it goes I guess

from what im reading, that's a good call.

i'm looking to run this:

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products/engine-oils/10-tenths-racing/racing_20_____shear_free

as was recommended in the email, the additional thickness helps with any dilution ill get with the e85. as a track car with decent k's and gets thrashed hard, the extra thickness cant hurt either anyway.

my only worry is it does seem to be ester based, so i dunno.

[Jap_star]

Well I'm going to service it before hand. And was told by a few places that motul is a no no with e85. Guess well find out

[kingscorp]

Guy's.

I have worked in the oil industry for many years, specialising in Automotive, Earthmoving, Transport, Mining and industrial. Also I have been lucky enough to be racing cars since the 1990's

Currently I am racing in improved Production in a S14a 200sx My website, its obviously a built engine and we are using Power Plus E85.

When considering which oil to use, always check the manufactures recommendations. However when racing you may want to consider different viscosities (thickness). I use a United Oil product, which is the company i am currently working for. Please dont get caught up in marketing hype, all the reputable brands are good!

The most important thing when using E85 is to change your oil regularly, E85 destroys it. Also, to meet the new API rating "SN" the oil must be suitable for use with E85 fuel. So, when shopping for your oil, you really should be looking for an API "SN" oil. API "S" specs . Now this is where you will find it hard. To meet API "SN" the oil must also meet stringint fuel consumption tests, which means in most cases the oil will be thin. Also, like someone said earlier the base oil is likely to be a "Hydrocrack" which is not a "proper" synthetic. Hydrocrack Synthetics are still are very good product, infact most people on here will be using hydrocrack synthetics and not even know it. Hydrocraks can struggle a bit in ultra high temp racing applications as they can tend fume of their lighter solvents and leave only the thicker oil in the sump. You sometimes can see this as the catch can will have fuems coming out and may also leave some oil in the catch can.

So, ideally if you are using E85 in a racecar you will want full synthetic (PAO/Ester) that meets API "SN", but I dont think its available yet. The next best thing is an API "SM" that is a PAO/Ester synthetic and a viscosity that suits your requirments and CHANGE IT VERY OFTEN! If you are using E85 in a road car that does the occasional track sprint or drag race choose an API "SN" hydrocrack, I think the thickest you will find is a 5w40 or 5w50. United GX Racing API SN

FYI I use United Ulimax 10w60 SM (PAO/Ester) in my E85 200sx but also sell United 1 5w50 SM (PAO/Ester)to fellow racers using E85 in their racecars including some hardcore RB engines on E85, we change it after every race meeting.

http://www.united-oil.com/UploadedImg/1313653961_UNITED%20ULTIMAX%20RACING.pdfUnited 1

United Ultimax 10w60

People say the oil thins out when using E85 but from my experience I think thats incorrect. Its more like using Methanol, the oil congeals like having water in your oil!

When using AV Gas in our FD RX7 race car (500hp 13b Turbo) we use to get a full season out of our engine oil, so thats 8 race meetings and 4 practice days, thats 380 laps or 850kms. Now on E85 using the same oil we have to change it after every meeting.

I hope this helps, if you feel I am incorrect or if you have a question pleas elet me know

Ash

[Rolls]

Just out of curiosity how do you evaluate your oils, do you go through oil analysis?

[discopotato03]

I like the Mobil 1 Racing 4T bike oils because of their high ZDDP content . I think sport bikes work their lube oil harder than cars do and are currently less under the greenie microscope .

[Cowboy1600]

Would anyone recommend following the above advise (thicker and semi synthetic) when running water methanol injection?

Any links to your H2O/Meth inj? Did you do a kit or home made jobbie? I'd love meth injection for added piece of mind.

[kingscorp]

I like the Mobil 1 Racing 4T bike oils because of their high ZDDP content . I think sport bikes work their lube oil harder than cars do and are currently less under the greenie microscope .

Maybe not a good idea for cars, it will be OK but there are better choices. Bike oils have additives to suit wet clucthes and the gearbox. Also you will find they are usually a low API rating SF or SG

Ash

[kingscorp]

Just out of curiosity how do you evaluate your oils, do you go through oil analysis?

Do you mean as a user?

[nisskid]

just got a reply from Motul:

As you know, the use of Ethanol blended fuels have increased dramatically within the last decade and many lubricants are not able to cope with the dilution from the blow by and subsequent absorption of water given Ethanol is hydroscopic.

You were lucky enough to have gone with the Motul 4100 15w/50 to begin with as this is already known to be resistant to dilution.

One of our sponsors who runs a 1000+hp Toyota on E85 has found Motul 6100 15w/50 to be the best oil. It showed to be the least affected by E85 when compared with both Motul and equivalent products.

They also use Motul 6100 in their world record holding drag cars if that’s a testament to anything.

If you want more info from GAS Motorsports, you can call or visit them,

GAS Motorsports - 7/38 Elizabeth St Wetherill Park NSW 2164 (02) 9604 3643

Something worth noting is that most oils reduce in viscosity as they get closer to their flash point. Both 4100 and 6100 have a flash point of about 225deg C, but what’s interesting is their viscosity doesn’t dramatically drop off once it goes over normal operating temp.

Say you were to use 6100 against a competing product, you will notice the oil pressure drop off more so with the other product, where 6100 will maintain a relatively normal oil pressure.

You will see Motul has had a great deal of success in the Motorcycle industry because of those advantages also as some air cooled bikes reach in excess of 140deg C in oil temp.

If you have any further questions, I’d be happy to answer them anytime. I hope this helps you choose the right lubricant.

Regards,

Troy Burnside

0400 795 344

------------------

[nisskid]

and another reply from Penrite after further questioning with some good info.

Dear Stewart,

Thanks for the email.

Starting at the end:

The new oil is out there and was being delivered in late November, though stores with a slow turnover could possibly still have the SIN range (not a problem for you), otherwise they should already be restocked with the new range. For some products it was just a renaming (eg SIN 15 & SIN 20 became Racing 15 & Racing 20 respectively). Lethargy in restocking is, I’m afraid, a store issue. Repco should be a good place to try.

I wouldn’t worry about ester breakdown as the inevitable fuel dilution will cause you to change oil well ahead of this. Both mineral and synthetic oils have trouble absorbing alcohols (essentially oil and “water” don’t mix). Of course, the situation is more complicated -ethanol does not behave entirely as water and part of the oil’s additive system is detergent, which facilitates the formation of an oil/aqueous phase emulsion. In short, use an oil that is on the heavy side and change frequently. It’s probably better to go mineral with frequent oil changes than synthetic with longer drain intervals. If money is more available, go synthetic and change frequently. We are relying on the detergent content of the oil to handle the water content –our HPR 30 is API SM and the Racing options have the latest levels –SN, so water scavenging is not expected to be an issue.

I trust our pricing information, from Kim, was helpful. Don’t forget, you can check out the product codes etcetera by looking at the product information sheets on our website (penriteoil.com.au)

Don’t hesitate to write again if you need more clarification or assistance.

Regards,

Alan Jeffery

Technical Department

Penrite Oil Company

[nisskid]

at this stage i seem to be pretty confident that the 6100 is the best to deal with the ethanol, but the penrite is a better oil as far as protection goes etc based on tests i've seen (ULP tests however)

[Piggaz]

I wouldn’t worry about ester breakdown as the inevitable fuel dilution will cause you to change oil well ahead of this

So does that mean 300 V with a regular change interval is fine to use?

[boostn0199]

So confusing with some saying synthetic is fine others saying not I guess just got to go with what has worked for you in my case im just going to stick with motul power.

[JonnoHR31]

how often you need to change would come down to clearances aswell. if you have a nice fresh tight motor you'd have a lot less water dilution problems and could use the oil longer than if you have a lot of blowby.

[T04GTR]

like mensioned a while ago, when i was with the ute team, we had 7 utes to maintain at one point.

back then penrite was a major sponsor so we ran penrite everyhting.

engine ware was very good. engine failures were rare with majority from over heating. (up to 180deg c oil temp.) 140deg c coolant)

the penrite lube sponsorship term ended, and we had to get opur own oils. we got #nited oil for our team. 10w60 syntetic. engine ware was higher and we had a few broken cranks (from spun bearings) and timing chain failures.

then #ulon came in to the picture with sponsorship, engine ware and failures were similar. but still acceptable.

point of the story is that in my personal opinion and from my own experiance, penrite syn range performed the best in the utes, (no oil coolers, massive rev down changes and pretty much the toughest enviroment for oil i can think of)

we uses liquimoly in the race car, 10w60 syn, it fairs ok, but there is 15 litres of it... buty i rekon you could light the fumes from the dry sump tank (very strong alc smell)

[scotty nm35]

Dave does the dry sump have a breather?

Most of the ethanol in my oil ends up in the catch can, like I said as long as your oil temps are high enough for long enough most of the dilution will evaporate anyway.

So the moral of the story is change your oil more often? Nothing new there...

[BLITZ-26]

this is all good reading, as i am son to be running E85 in my street car, and have swaped from nulon to trying the penrite and so far very happy with the results

[nisskid]

So does that mean 300 V with a regular change interval is fine to use?

i'm still not sure, it seems motul are saying as far as dealing with E85, the 6100 is the best, no mention of 300v, however penrite have just recommended their best oil in a thicker weight to deal with dilution.

it seems there are 2 thoughts, penrite believe their detergents will handle any water content from the ethanol, i'm going to try and locate exactly what motul believes makes their oils deal with the water.

[kingscorp]

like mensioned a while ago, when i was with the ute team, we had 7 utes to maintain at one point.

back then penrite was a major sponsor so we ran penrite everyhting.

engine ware was very good. engine failures were rare with majority from over heating. (up to 180deg c oil temp.) 140deg c coolant)

the penrite lube sponsorship term ended, and we had to get opur own oils. we got #nited oil for our team. 10w60 syntetic. engine ware was higher and we had a few broken cranks (from spun bearings) and timing chain failures.

then #ulon came in to the picture with sponsorship, engine ware and failures were similar. but still acceptable.

point of the story is that in my personal opinion and from my own experiance, penrite syn range performed the best in the utes, (no oil coolers, massive rev down changes and pretty much the toughest enviroment for oil i can think of)

we uses liquimoly in the race car, 10w60 syn, it fairs ok, but there is 15 litres of it... buty i rekon you could light the fumes from the dry sump tank (very strong alc smell)

Interesting information. I dont recall Barrell complaining about the United Oil product. I was the one who organised the $$$ sponsorship and free products. Im sure if he thought there was a problem with the oil I would know about it!

There are smaller engines making 3 times the HP of the V8 Utes that are using United Oil and have never had a problem.

Find and API SN product and use that if you are running on E85.

V8 Utes are not hard on oil, they are a big lazy cubic inch engine making stuff all HP. A F1 engine is small and making lots of HP, this would be harder on oils than a V8 ute.

Ash