E85/eflex And Oil Choice

[The Dan]

no plugin G4 for the Stagea?

Any ECU with a digital input should be flex capable... Haltech options for Stagea?

yeah, i remember the last time i looked for UOA companies i struggled to find much. Unless blackstone has some sort of presence here in oz

My daily Mitsubishi Mirage is currently running 80% E85, next week will be 100%. All stock cept extractors and air filter.

I run Castrol Magnatec in that. If the oil light comes on, I might top it up with some Coles oil but I don't like to spoil her too often with that good stuff.

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

how's it cope with that? we gave my car a run on e85 before we tuned it and it ran like a dog

[The Dan]

how's it cope with that? we gave my car a run on e85 before we tuned it and it ran like a dog

Yeah it runs very well. Noticeably more power (~10-15hp more at wheels but I'll have to dyno it to see exactly - it used to be 74.2hp at the front wheels prior on 95)

The only reason I can run it is because I can manually advance the timing on the distributor. I haven't even bothered checking how far I advanced it.

I started out with approx 50% mix of E85 and E10 around 6 months ago. 20L of E85 and 25L of E10. Obviously its a 45L tank. This is 45L to the absolute brim from cutting out pulling into the driveway of the fuel station.

Once the mix was in I wound the dizzy all the way forward, got in, floored it - pinging. Stopped, got out, turned the dizzy back a little, got in, floored it - pinging....rinse and repeat about 4 times until it stopped pinging audibly (I love these NA shitboxes)

I used to get 600km to a tank on 95 - 650 if I babied it around like Ma Kettle.

I now get 600km to a tank and 650 if I baby it around like Ma Kettle.

A/C on constantly I get 550km on both. There was no economy drop changing to E85 for me.

So eventually I started thinking about running a higher percentage. I would do a 70/30 mix occasionally and it ran well, no change to economy either. Yesterday I put in 36L on top of 20L of 95 I put in the tank 2 days prior. (yes this doesn't work out but 2 days of driving used 11L)

The interesting thing was that on the 95 it pinged hard at any more than 50% load. I know the timing is advanced but back in the early 50/50 days I put 95 in a couple of times and it didn't ping and if it did, it was only on steep hills in a gear that was too high. Now it was pinging hard and using a LOT more fuel. 90km used 11L

I have been speaking to the E85 Guru tuner Sean at EFI and we both think that possibly the Mirage Death Ray might have adaptive tuning but I haven't bothered to look it up.

So anyway, now it has about 80/20 and runs even better again. First 80km seems to be consistent with previous 50/50 economy. Power is still there but seems a tiny bit more (could be placebo)

Next week I will be putting the wideband on it with 100% mix and see how it goes. It's about $15-20 per tank cheaper and if it doesn't required any more fuel to get me the same distance, I say up yours to the fuel bowser

I will be fitting our hydrogen setup to it later on this year so hoping to get 1000km to a tank once that goes on and having the greenest Mirage in the world.

Oh and the engine is a 4G15 (1.5L mulitpoint) with 350,000 kms on it

[kingscorp]

Yes

Yes I do.

The best thing to do is to take regular samples to establish a trend. Regular samples showed contamination caused by the E85. Once I Also found high metal contamination, which they sugested it looked like cam wear. I then inspected the cams and one of the lubricating holes was blocked with some silicon. So sampling is a good thing, helps find potential falures

Ash

[nisskid]

liqui-moly's reply:

Dear Stewart

Thank you for your enquiry.

Without knowing the specific engine in question it is very hard to offer a recommendation.

As far as ethanol fuels go, if the engine is experiencing fuel contamination in the oil the only real alternative to my knowledge is to regularly change the oil and to use an additive (MOS2), this can offer some production if the condition of the oil is compromised.

Based on the product you have been using we could offer you a similar alternative.

The Motul product carries the following specifications;

STANDARDS ACEA A3 / B3, APPROVALS API SL / CF,

We would come close to this product with our 10W-60

LEICHTLAUF HIGH TECH | 10W-60

SPECIFICATIONS:

API SL/CF

Engineered to select factory requirements and high performance applications requiring a high level of thermal stability.

http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/mediendb.nsf/gfx2/1390%20Synthoil%20Race%20Tech%20GT1%20SAE%2010W-60_EN.pdf/$file/1390%20Synthoil%20Race%20Tech%20GT1%20SAE%2010W-60_EN.pdf

1L Part No: 1390

5L Part No: 1391

Best Regards,

Mark Johnson

Product Manager

really not what you'd call a comprehensive answer.

[nisskid]

another email from Motul, worth the read, definitely making me more confident in their product, not just recommending any of their products, actually pointing to specific products best suited to the ethanol.

Hi Stewart,

Your welcome. I’m more than happy to clear up this subject for you.

Here goes:

300v is not better for alcohol/ethanol fuel applications due to its ester base. Ester being the precise bi-product of a reaction between a given alcohol and a given acid formula thus the added alcohol component of E85 dilution gradually de-stabilises the 300v base formula - this process commonly occurs when 300v sits dormant with E85 dilution ie. between race days. 300v can be used with e85 effectively in single application (race and replace) preferably for short sprint events only - all subject to tune and engine wear that is present also (Piston ring tolerance permitting X% of fuel to blow by).

Dilution is in reference to the fuel content and generally refers to percentage by mass in this application - thus Alcohol dilution is commonly calculated by weighing diluted oil on retrieval and again after a 30min period of being cooked at 100c open air - basically calculating evaporated component by percentage. For example, you drop the oil after a race. Weigh it to get figure 1. Heat to 100c in open air for 30 mins. Re-weigh it to get figure 2 and the difference is worked out to what it originally weighed and then converted into a percentage.

Dilution is an issue when too much ethanol is allowed to mix with the oil reducing its viscosity and making it vulnerable to shear and in turn, metal to metal contact / engine failure.

Explaining exactly how 6100 copes with E85 better than others will require a detailed breakdown on the function and effect of total base numbers (TBN) present in oil formulations and how the 6100’s high TBN enables it provide maximum protection with alcohol fuels (best left to the lab rats) but this is the basis of 6100s ability in this regard - other manufacturers methods of dealing with E85 could well be different.

Generally speaking, absorbed water (due to E85 dilution) is not an issue. It only appears to be, with some oils showing signs of moisture more than others (Milky whisps or milky foam within the oil). You’ll find that 6100 and 4100 show little sign of absorbed water, when 300v will indicate it immediately with milky whisps. In most cases a small percentage of moisture in the oil will have little to no effect on performance whatsoever. The problem usually occurs more when the engine is allowed to sit for long periods between oil changes and the water starts to collect at the bottom of the pan. In normal circumstances where the engine is operated regularly, the small percentage of moisture will evaporate before you know it.

Naturally if water is coming from other sources, then that’s cause for concern and it will show up in more than just whisps.

I hope that helps answer your questions. If you need a scientific explaination, I will have to get that from the lab technicians at Motul France and it may take some time (needs translation).

Regards,

Troy Burnside

[boostn0199]

Now thats a good response definately Continuing with motul.

[SS8_Gohan]

not that it's the "be-all, end-all" but 6100 is a semi-synth yeah? group III/IV or group III/V mix?

[nisskid]

it's a semi-synth, i think the main thing here is you can use any oil you want with e85, as long as you are prepared to change it very regularly, maybe even after each usage, and assuming there isn't ridiculous blow by, the thing is what oils deal with it and can be used without changing for a while, it's basically an economy thing. from my run with motul oils, i have put my engine through hell without issues with the 4100's, so i'd be happy to go to the 6100 and have slightly better dealing with the ethanol content, but the same protection. the question is, would the penrite provide the better protection? i get the feeling it would, but im not sold it will deal with the ethanol as well.

for me, i want to lean towards the penrite as i can get discount through SCA, and they don't carry motul.

[The Dan]

it's a semi-synth, i think the main thing here is you can use any oil you want with e85, as long as you are prepared to change it very regularly, maybe even after each usage, and assuming there isn't ridiculous blow by, the thing is what oils deal with it and can be used without changing for a while, it's basically an economy thing. from my run with motul oils, i have put my engine through hell without issues with the 4100's, so i'd be happy to go to the 6100 and have slightly better dealing with the ethanol content, but the same protection. the question is, would the penrite provide the better protection? i get the feeling it would, but im not sold it will deal with the ethanol as well.

for me, i want to lean towards the penrite as i can get discount through SCA, and they don't carry motul.

I must have read the email reply from Motul incorrectly but I'm pretty sure they explained why all oils aren't compatible regardless of service intervals unless you change it at EVERY meet. But that's kinda silly unless you are running an extreme dedicated super car with full sponsorship

[nisskid]

I must have read the email reply from Motul incorrectly but I'm pretty sure they explained why all oils aren't compatible regardless of service intervals unless you change it at EVERY meet. But that's kinda silly unless you are running an extreme dedicated super car with full sponsorship

pretty sure that was more penrite's reaction, that regardless of what you use, you have to change it very often, motul seem more confident in certain products lasting longer than others, but still benefiting from regular changes.

[Missileman]

Have any of you guys who have been running E85 for a while taken a look inside your fuel tanks recently?

Have been chasing a fuel smell in the cabin, so I checked the seal between fuel tank and pump/ sender unit, looks like the O-ring was not installed correctly from the Nissan factory as it has a nice flat deformation in it.

What I also found when I looked inside the tank was a rusty mess, and this was on 98ULP, since ethanol is hygroscopic would not this lead to a greater risk of corrosion?

Edited January 11, 2012 by Missileman

[scotty nm35]

It depends how well galvanized your fuel tank is, ethanol will usually only rust the unprotected parts of the tank like any post gal welding etc. Mine is perfect still after 2 years but an older car may have issues. Its a good idea to check occasionally, as you found. Yours may have let moisture in through the damaged seal?

[Missileman]

It depends how well galvanized your fuel tank is, ethanol will usually only rust the unprotected parts of the tank like any post gal welding etc. Mine is perfect still after 2 years but an older car may have issues. Its a good idea to check occasionally, as you found. Yours may have let moisture in through the damaged seal?

Too right I suspect the seal as the cause, as I also have another R32 that's a year older and it's tank is nice and shiny, like new, and makes that psssh sound when you release the fuel cap.

[MsR]

so to cut short, Penrite Sin 15 and 20, Motul 4100 and 6100 are safe and recommended? and when speaking of regular oil changes, are we talking about cutting back from 5000km to 3000km?

[kingscorp]

Alot of B/S on this.

Like I said earlier, API SN is designed for use with ethanol fuel.

And its going to be a Semi Synthetic or Hydrocracked oil.

Dosent matter which brand, just get an API SN oil

Ash

[Harey]

Bit of an oil noob but where could we see a list of all of the API SN oils?

[kingscorp]

Bit of an oil noob but where could we see a list of all of the API SN oils?

Next time you go to buy Oil look at the API Spec, look for one that is API SN!

API SN is amongst other things its designed for use with E85, more and more new cars are now being designed to run on E85. The new Commodore can run on low octane unleaded or even E85, the compute automaticaly changes the map to suit.

So the oil companies now product an oil designed for E85, that is API SN. I think its the first time a API spec has hadto meet the test procedures for E85.

At United Oil (not united Fuel) we have many API SN products, but like all the other oil companies they will be a Hydrocrack (group 3) base synthetics.

I am suprised the oil companies who have responded to the question on E85 fuels have failed to mention API SN spec, its the most critical factor! Or maybe they arn't API Accreditied?

Info in API SN

List of all the API Petrol engine specs

Ash

[SS8_Gohan]

so we could then use a ILSAC GF-5 rated oil as well i take it if API SN is ethanol compatible...

[SS8_Gohan]

that would seem to be a yes...

E-85 Rust Protection (Rust protection when using Biofuel)

Many vehicles will be built to be flexible fuel vehicles. They will be capable of running on conventional unleaded regular gasoline; on E85 which is 85 % Ethanol plus 15 % conventional unleaded gasoline; or on any mixture in between.

Although very few vehicles will actually run on E85 the majority of the time, the OEMs want to ensure they do not have detrimental performance when using E85. The two areas of concern are rust protection and emulsion retention.

A bench test has been added to GF-5 to ensure sufficient protection from rust caused by biofuels such as E-85 fuel in Flexible Fuel Vehicles

Biofuels such as E-85 are different from gasoline and may cause engine rust to occur in Flexible Fuel Vehicles, so it is important that the new GF-5 formulations are fortified to prevent rust. Biofuels such as E-85 are coming into wider use and GF-5 oils must be able to address this potential rust issue.

The new performance requirement of E-85 rust protection has a measurable impact on the formulating challenges of GF-5.

^Back to top

E-85 Emulsion Retention

Many vehicles will be built to be flexible fuel vehicles. They will be capable of running on conventional unleaded regular gasoline; on E85, which is 85% Ethanol plus 15% conventional unleaded gasoline; or on any mixture in between.

Although very few vehicles will actually run on E85 the majority of the time, the OEMs want to ensure they do not have detrimental performance when using E85. The two areas of concern are emulsion retention and rust protection.

An emulsion retention test is to be included in GF-5 to ensure emulsion retention occurs when biofuels such as E85 are used in FFV.

The byproducts of combustion of biofuels such as E85 fuel are water and acids that tend to be very corrosive if not controlled. The retention of the E-85 emulsion is necessary as it helps to minimize the corrosivity that the water and acids from combustion and condensation may cause.

The new performance requirement of E85 Emulsion Retention have a measurable impact on the formulating challenges of GF-5.

now to find a list of G5-F oils...

looks like GF-5 might be better than API SN in some regards, as there will be API SN and SN Resource Conserving, SN normal doesn't seem to require emulsion retention... interesting...

I think i'm going to try and find a GF-5 oil to try.