So Will Sau Folk Still Refuse To Watch V8 Supercars

[hrd-hr30]

By what logic? The 1993 rules forbid turbocharging, simple as that. The Corolla, BMW M3 etc. All continued to compete. The V8SC series began with the inaugural 1997 season, at which point only Ford and Holden pushrod 5 litre engine sedans were permitted.

5l V8 category began in 93. 97 was just when CAMS sold it to Cochrane and he remaned it.

CAMS publicly stated the plan was to introduce the 5l V8 touring car category to replace GroupA. Keeping the 2L category was just an interim measure. Make no mistake, they got rid of them too. They just kept them around to make up numbers for a year or two. Or are you arguing the semantics of the date it happened?

[djr81]

Or are you arguing the semantics of the date it happened?

Why the hell not? This whole thread has been arguing about nothing so we may aswell keep it going.

The 5 litre V8's first ran at Bathurst in 92.

Oh and the 2 litres had their own championship series after they split from the V8's. It died in the arse when the BTCC did much the same. Was a good thing for a while, however. Was good to see so many random makes/models out there having a go.

[hrd-hr30]

Why the hell not? This whole thread has been arguing about nothing so we may aswell keep it going.

The 5 litre V8's first ran at Bathurst in 92.

Oh and the 2 litres had their own championship series after they split from the V8's.

no shit. but not in the ATCC.

[whatsisname]

5l V8 category began in 93. 97 was just when CAMS sold it to Cochrane and he remaned it.

CAMS publicly stated the plan was to introduce the 5l V8 touring car category to replace GroupA. Keeping the 2L category was just an interim measure. Make no mistake, they got rid of them too. They just kept them around to make up numbers for a year or two. Or are you arguing the semantics of the date it happened?

I'm just stating what actually happened. The 93 season was indeed the first under the new rules, but wasn't limited to 5 litre sedans - Longhurst actually managed a 2nd and 3rd in the M3. By 94 the field consisted of nothing but 5 litre V8s, then in 1997 it became V8SC as you stated.

[hrd-hr30]

I'm just stating what actually happened. The 93 season was indeed the first under the new rules, but wasn't limited to 5 litre sedans - Longhurst actually managed a 2nd and 3rd in the M3. By 94 the field consisted of nothing but 5 litre V8s, then in 1997 it became V8SC as you stated.

so what? I said "by that logic", not "by that date". What actually happened is everything else got the arse. They just allowed things that would never be championship contenders to hang around for a while to bolster the grids.

As for the 'banned' comments, the facts remain that from the beginning of the 1993 ATCC season turbocharged cars were no longer permitted resulting in the banning of both the GT-R and Ford Sierra.

And the fact remains that by the 95 season no other cars except 5l V8s were permitted in the ATCC, banning everything else. Its the same logic.

[Roy]

Nah I remember the M3 running directly against the V8's..... there was a year's grace wasn't there for Longhurst and co?

Yeh, but Longhurst was allowed to run lighter, more revs/compression and latest aero updates to get him closer to the V8s. He was nto 2L FIA spec in 93.

I think at Sandown and Bathurst the two classes ran together.

And yep, was Ellery in the ex Seton Sierra less turbos. Was a dog of a thing without its hp. M3 demolished it in the suspension dept

[whatsisname]

So why not let everything hang around to bolster the grid till they had enough teams ready for a full grid? Why stagger them out at all? And more importantly, why restrict the field in the first place? Multiple configuration vehicle fields work, numerous other motorsport categories around the work are testament to that - IPRA is just one example where NA V8s and all-wheel drive turbocharged cars compete side by side with great success. No reason it couldn't work in the premier category.

[Roy]

I just dont like the term banned. Fact is Nissan had proven what it set out to do with the GTR. They had no interest in locally developing the R33 or funding a team for another series. It meant Australia could have taken the Grp A regulations and kept them, but there were no new cars being built by any manufacturers interested in racing them.

So, Holden and Ford put their hand up and said they would continue racing....so with FIA canning Grp A rules and country's looking to create their own series to suit their own markets....Australia put together a rule book for V8s. If Nissan were interested in fundign 2-3 teams, along with BMW and Toyota etc then the rules would not have come out the way they did.

When you are the only people at the table it makes complete sense that the rules are made to suit your cars. Hence, we got V8 sedans and fact is in their first season they provided far better racing then Grp A had for years. The only good Grp A races was Winton and Mallala when the M3s mixed it up with the GTR. At Lakeside Dick normally did well as well as Perkins in his VL (ditto Symmons Plains, Larry normally went well when he wheeled his car out of the garage for the Tassie round)

So saying BMW were banned is a paper thin statement. BMW hung around due to Fank Gardner and the money that the Longhurst and Morris families brought to the team. Not BMW money. Nissan didnt sell anything in Australia worth racing...what car in their line up was remotely capable of racing in a series?

So, shits me that Ford and Holden get blamed for stepping up and funding teams to go racing. Hell, Percy and Mezera should be commended for getting HRT back from a 4 races a year team to a full time two car team!

Put another way...motorsport requires manufacturer support/involvement! No point comparing IPRA to top level tin top racing as there would only be a very few cars out there that are even for sale at the lcoal dealership. Fact is top level tin top racing needs to have cars that at least represent or look like the current cars for sale... if Holden and Ford did not put in for teams funding, the series would be poorer for it

[Marlin]

Wanting to put Holden and Ford on a pedestal and thanking them for "saving" Australian tin top racing is going a little far though. They were just as aggressive toward the concurrently run Australian chamionship as the V8 brigade. Fighting for prominence against the V8's was Super Tourers. 2 litre cars from Hyundai to BMW were involved.

The stoush between what became V8SCA and the 2 litre formula is well documented, with Alan Gow (CEO of the 2 litres) unfortunaly underestimating the competition.

And yeah, I'm aware Longhurst was allowed some speedy freedoms to compete. It just would have been nice is the door was kept open to other manufacturers. It's a shame its taken 20 years to allow it, and now the cars are so far removed from anything even remotely showroom based it's just a bit hard for me personally to get too excited about it.

[hrd-hr30]

So why not let everything hang around to bolster the grid till they had enough teams ready for a full grid? Why stagger them out at all? And more importantly, why restrict the field in the first place? Multiple configuration vehicle fields work, numerous other motorsport categories around the work are testament to that - IPRA is just one example where NA V8s and all-wheel drive turbocharged cars compete side by side with great success. No reason it couldn't work in the premier category.

The answers are obvious. They were phasing out GroupA racing like the rest of the world already had. The only reason they didn't make it one clean cutover was they don't want to loose all the privateers in the smaller cheaper to run Group A cars so gave them a year or two to make the changeover into the new cars. Longhursts BMW was a special case. I'd say their long term involvement and the cash they brought to the racing allowed them to negotiate a special case until they made their decision either way.

Edited February 13, 2012 by hrd-hr30

[Roy]

Wanting to put Holden and Ford on a pedestal and thanking them for "saving" Australian tin top racing is going a little far though. They were just as aggressive toward the concurrently run Australian chamionship as the V8 brigade. Fighting for prominence against the V8's was Super Tourers. 2 litre cars from Hyundai to BMW were involved.

The stoush between what became V8SCA and the 2 litre formula is well documented, with Alan Gow (CEO of the 2 litres) unfortunaly underestimating the competition.

And yeah, I'm aware Longhurst was allowed some speedy freedoms to compete. It just would have been nice is the door was kept open to other manufacturers. It's a shame its taken 20 years to allow it, and now the cars are so far removed from anything even remotely showroom based it's just a bit hard for me personally to get too excited about it.

Did what I post read like I was saying they "saved" Australian tin top racing. Certainly wasnt my attentionb. But if you are the only one left at the table wanting to play....then you shouldnt be blamed for having the others banned. Sure they pushed for the series they got....but their place at the table was strengthened by nobody else being around

Re the 2L series with non factory, used BTCC cars running around???? Volvo had a small investment in the car run by Brock, but it was a used chassis from UK. The BMWs were not a factory team, it was Frank Gardner/Morris/Longhurst money and imported OS cars with paper thin support from BMW. There was technical support but no money from what I understand. Ford and the Mondeo? No factory involvement. Roger and the Nissan Primera for Steve Richards...no factory support. Alfa for Steve Richards, any factory support? Nope. About the only guy with a level of genuine factory support was Audi and Brad Jones...and again they were imported cars.

So, understand the Supertourers were around....but with no factory support and imported used cars I dont think they were ever going to be a force to be reckoned with as Australia's car manufacturers didnt even get behind it...not even those not involved in V8s!

So more than saying Ford and Holden saved tin top racing (again, was not the picture I tried to paint) the lack of support by Volvo, Nissan, Ford, Holden-Vauxhall, Alfa meant we were pretty sure the V8s were going to remain the stronger category

[whatsisname]

It wasn't that long ago that Toyota and Mitsubishi wanted in on the action only for Ford and Holden to kick up a fuss and prevent it from becoming a reality. Fast forward a few years and now V8SC with their COTF are asking all and sundry to jump onboard. If I were Toyota Aust CEO I'd be saying thanks but no thanks.

I would've preferred Nissan kept out of it, and with Ford reducing their involvement the series might've eventually died or became Formula Holden Commodore. Perhaps then the sponsorship dollars could've been channeled into a new series, one that provided real variety.

[Marlin]

You're an angry bitch tonight.... are you still hungover from the weekend?

I didn't quote you, I was merely taking from your post what I thought you intended.

And yep, understand what you've said re the 2 litres, but I'm not convinced manufacturer support is the "be all and end all" (not quoting you, just saying ) of a successful tin top formula.

Besides, there's a bunch of Australian families and businesses with more money to throw at motor racing than Ford and Holden. Those two simply pounced when the timing was right, then proceeded to slowly back away from supporting the series.

[Roy]

It wasn't that long ago that Toyota and Mitsubishi wanted in on the action only for Ford and Holden to kick up a fuss and prevent it from becoming a reality. Fast forward a few years and now V8SC with their COTF are asking all and sundry to jump onboard. If I were Toyota Aust CEO I'd be saying thanks but no thanks.

I would've preferred Nissan kept out of it, and with Ford reducing their involvement the series might've eventually died or became Formula Holden Commodore. Perhaps then the sponsorship dollars could've been channeled into a new series, one that provided real variety.

So Mitsubishi who dont even have enough money to have local assembly of cars or enough money to keep Ralliart going in a sport they have a proud and successful history in were really going to get behind a saloon series? BS! It was never genuine interest and the stories were from Cockring himself...had nothing to do with Holden and Ford kickign up a fuss to exclude them. Re Toyota, same thing....Toyota were itnerested, Cockring happy to bring them in and Holden and Ford kicked up a fuss with questions regarding how their inclusion was going to affect their need to spend money. Holden and Ford have been mindful of their spend on the series for years and another manufacturers inclusion has always meant that in order to be competitive they may have to up their investment...something they may not be able to do.

At least with COTF the spend isnt such a concern anymore....so dont think Ford, in particular Holden are too worried about the imapct another manufacturer will have on their need to spend money.

Its not about racing, its about preserving the industry where there are a few thousand paid jobs...if Holden, Ford, Nissan etc cant afford to be involved, it will end up like ARC where nobody does it full time or gets paid.

You're an angry bitch tonight.... are you still hungover from the weekend?

I didn't quote you, I was merely taking from your post what I thought you intended.

And yep, understand what you've said re the 2 litres, but I'm not convinced manufacturer support is the "be all and end all" (not quoting you, just saying ) of a successful tin top formula.

Besides, there's a bunch of Australian families and businesses with more money to throw at motor racing than Ford and Holden. Those two simply pounced when the timing was right, then proceeded to slowly back away from supporting the series.

LOL, too tired to type...so being lazy and short. Sorry

LOL, mind you I have now posted a whole load of shit in this thread so cant be too tired

[djr81]

The answers are obvious. They were phasing out GroupA racing like the rest of the world already had. The only reason they didn't make it one clean cutover was they don't want to loose all the privateers in the smaller cheaper to run Group A cars so gave them a year or two to make the changeover into the new cars. Longhursts BMW was a special case. I'd say their long term involvement and the cash they brought to the racing allowed them to negotiate a special case until they made their decision either way.

If I remember correctly the 2 litre championship was a pretty good thing by 1994. BMW tipped a heap on money into it over a number of years to beat Audi. They were the E36 3 series whereas the 93 cars in the SATCC were the E30 M3's.

The argument at the time was very much a case of do you run 2 litre cars as per the hugely successful BTCC or our own 5 litre championship. The 2 litre cars didnt really suit most of the established teams at the time. Basically

Glenn Seton racing (Ford Sierras)

Dick Johnson racing - Sierras.

Gibson motorsport - GTR's

HRT - Commodores

Perkins/Brock (Take them as the same/seperate depending on timing) - Commodores.

Frank Gardners mob BMW

Colin Bond - Sierras.

That was pretty much it from memory - the rest were privateers. So you can see which side of the fence most of the established teams were on. Only BMW & I guess judging from Fred Gibsons comments at the time Freddo himself were pushing for 2 litre cars. Brad Jones - who did good things in the Audi wasnt properly established. Neither was Garry Rodgers. Volvo did enter - not to much effect until too late.

Anyway the point is there was a viable, well supported 2 litre championship which withered and died. They had their own sprint series, their own Bathurst race and endless opportunities for manufacturer involvement. Plus a source of cheap(ish) second hand cars and good drivers.

As for Toyota & Mitsubishi their involvement in Group A was pretty minimal, class cars aside for Toyota.

[hrd-hr30]

V8 Supercars dying out is a nice thought... but let's face it, if it did, V8 Brutes would take over as our premier category...

[Roy]

Well, it is what is for the time being. You can still watch the Grp A cars today...lol years later the results are still pretty much the same with the GTRs winning

Will be interesting to see how Kelly Racing goes. How much Perkins engineering remains in the DNA of the team? I know Larry is off doing his light aircraft electropnics thing/ but the team engineers etc still Perkins folks? If Perkins is the behind the scenes guy developing the Nissan for 12 months then I am optimistic they will be up the pointy end

[whatsisname]

This argument/passionate discussion could go on and on, so I'll pull stumps on it from here on in. However, I'll leave with a final comment, I agree that you don't need direct manufacturer funding to run a motorsport team - F1 is the perfect example of this. RBR have SFA to do with the manufacture of automobiles and yet they are the current champions. Sure, they need someone to build their engines but rather than cost the manufacturer they make money out of it. Australia has enough corporate wealth and enthusiasts for large-scale non-manufacturer funded motorsport to exist.

Perhaps one day Australia will get a premier series of motor racing that involves more than RWD NA V8s

[sh@un]

If Rick wins Bathurst, I wanna see if He can call VB-sozzled bogans a 'pack of arseholes' with as much vitriol as Jim Richards could.

[Jetwreck]

If Rick wins Bathurst, I wanna see if He can call VB-sozzled bogans a 'pack of arseholes' with as much vitriol as Jim Richards could.

^^^^ that!

Without saying to much I actually think that the Kelly Team is one of the better suited teams for Nissan.....they do everything in house......Todd is very motivated and has complete respect and support from his team and Nissan.

I just hope that they come out in team colours and at least one of the cars has GTR branding all over it.

More to the point when Toyota and Chrysler join it should become even better!

P.S. I can back Todd.....going to struggle with his little nasally sister Rick!