Moar Braking Power Wanted!

[Ruxis]

Hey guys,

I went to wakie (track) for the first time and was getting beaten in the corners, Ive got a GTT bout 180 atw, brakes I have QFM front brake pads (stock rear) and all brake fluid lines flushed.

Also my suspension is stock.

On the track I had lots of body roll so I've invested in sway bars since then, and strangly if I stamped the brakes my wheels would screech, isn't abs suppose to stop that??

I have 245 federal SS right round.

Would the case be my tyres aren't good enough to handle the braking power??

Or would it have something to do with my brakes??

Or would it be the weight shift was to quick with the stock suspension?? Or all the above? Haha.

I'm going again in less then a month and would like a faster time, should I reflush brake fluid and maybe sand the brake pads incase it may have glazed?? (they were squeeking after the day but that's gone now)

Preferably spendly only my labour, not keen on bigger brakes or lines or anything like that, Just having a bit if fun.

Thanks!

Jarrad

[GTSBoy]

When you say "screech" do you mean brake squeal or tyre lockup noise? Yes, ABD will (should) stop tyre lockup but no, ABS will not affect brake noise if the pad/rotor interface is screeching.

Also, what QFM pad? There's a few different brews. Maybe you need a better pad. You should also consider looking at the balance between pads front and rear. Leaving the back stock might be reducing the abuse they can handle before giving up, while your fronts are still good to go, and so you end up with less total brake power, rather than more.

[89CAL]

ABS doesnt completly stop brake locks. It looks at the front wheel speed's of all 4 wheels and if one is abnormally down on the others it releases some brake pressure then re-apply's it in an attempt to eliminate lock up. EDIT: Not 100% sure how it deals with 4 wheel lockup but it should still apply ABS in this situation.

If all 4 wheels are locked up there might not be anything the ABS can do about this?

when you say your wheels are screeching, do you mean they are completely locking up or just stressing a bit under hard braking (i.e not breaking traction)?

You may just need to practice and get a better feel for the brakes.... you may just be asking to much of them

Edited March 1, 2012 by 89CAL

[mystery_kid]

federal 595 SS on the track is always going to be a recipe for failure as well

they are great street tyres but like most street tyres they arent going to be much chop on the track

[Ruxis]

more info hehe, on the track the tyres were screeching, haha.

the brake pads are A1RM which ive heard are pretty good.

ill get a quote for some rear pads

the screech was breif, a 1 second screech.

after a run laps i was easing into braking lighter as i didnt want to have hexagons for tyres for the drive home haha.

i found the federals to be awesome on the track, on the long sweeping corners the only thing letting me down was body roll, the tyres stuck like glue! i was mostly happy with the tyres from the day. least impressed with the ultimate body roll, hence the upgrade that should arrive in a couple weeks .

maybe your right callan, i shouldnt expect so much with the budget im on haha.

just keen for MOAR!!!! hahahha

[89CAL]

even a set of slotted rotors and good quality pads might be enough to reach the performance level your after. I got my slotted rotors off here (RDA) for $400-$500 for a full set

Unless you want to go all out and start buying brake kits.

Tyres is another story, never used those tyres so no idea what they are like

[KiwiRS4T]

Cheap fixes: are you using a high quality brake fluid like Motul RBF600 or similar? Make up some home-made ducting to direct air to your brakes

[Hank Scorpio]

Fit the following...

- Good rear pads

- DBA or Project Mu slotted rotors

- High quality brake fluid

- Aftermarket Coilovers or Aftermarket shocks + King Springs (Bilstein or Koni)

- Softer compund tyres (Advan Neova AD08/Toyo Proxes R1R or similar)

Report back and see how much better you did

Edited March 2, 2012 by Hank Scorpio

[Roy]

Hank touched on it...you dont need to touch your brakes. Look at putting some new, performance shocks and springs in the car and put on 595 RSR or better tyres on. Brakes don't give you stopping power, increasing the level of grip increases your braking power

[Ruxis]

probly selling it soon so hence not wanting to put much money into it as ive done enough of that haha.

i do have that brake fluid bob, haha ducting is an awesome idea, so simple yet never though of it. CAI for brakes haha love it, ill look into that.

[Ruxis]

haha fellas id love to do that! but im keen to buy a house soon so it will either be going or not be modded.

i think ill be waiting for an evo or a gtr to get serious, im only 20 so plenty of time to make a monster, just sick on insurance and what not.

[toddlls]

Uprated Pads=more brake bite+heavy braking foot= tyre squeal try practicing slightly less hard entry braking & try trail braking perhaps

Standard brakes are pretty good but after 3-4 hard laps you will get fade & fluid boiling especially with an upgraded pad.

A cooling kit will give you a bit of lee-way but any changes to suspension & tyres above what you already have will give you more grief as higher top speed at fastest part of track but you still got to slow for the next corner so more heat.

If you are doing the house thing & aint keeping the car dont do anything more than the ducting kit.

Just Buy your dream car & Spend all your hard earned on that

[blind_elk]

ABS doesnt completly stop brake locks. It looks at the front wheel speed's of all 4 wheels and if one is abnormally down on the others it releases some brake pressure then re-apply's it in an attempt to eliminate lock up. EDIT: Not 100% sure how it deals with 4 wheel lockup but it should still apply ABS in this situation.

If all 4 wheels are locked up there might not be anything the ABS can do about this?

when you say your wheels are screeching, do you mean they are completely locking up or just stressing a bit under hard braking (i.e not breaking traction)?

You may just need to practice and get a better feel for the brakes.... you may just be asking to much of them

ABS should be able to handle a 4-wheel lockup. ABS works by watching the ABS sensors; if the sensor stops rotating, then the ABS interprets that as lockup and releases pressure, then re-applies pressure. It can watch all 4 sensors simultaneously.

Simplest method though is to learn threshold braking, where you become the ABS unit, and learn how to apply maximum braking pressure without locking wheels. (My 32 has ABS, which I think I have only ever activated maybe twice in the 11 years I have owned the car.)

I wouldn't bother too much with "better" rear pads, since the greater majority of the braking is taken by the front brakes. For some additional cooling, remove the backing plates from the front rotor assembly.

[mystery_kid]

more info hehe, on the track the tyres were screeching, haha.

the brake pads are A1RM which ive heard are pretty good.

ill get a quote for some rear pads

the screech was breif, a 1 second screech.

after a run laps i was easing into braking lighter as i didnt want to have hexagons for tyres for the drive home haha.

i found the federals to be awesome on the track, on the long sweeping corners the only thing letting me down was body roll, the tyres stuck like glue! i was mostly happy with the tyres from the day. least impressed with the ultimate body roll, hence the upgrade that should arrive in a couple weeks .

maybe your right callan, i shouldnt expect so much with the budget im on haha.

just keen for MOAR!!!! hahahha

your body roll is what is keeping you from reaching the limit of the tyres

you will find with stiffer suspension that the tyres will let you down as you want to go faster but they wont be able to handle it

federal 595ss arent an awesome track tyre really tbh, they have handled what you can throw at them probably because you arent a great driver (no offence meant, im not either) i mean that in terms of pushing the car

[KiwiRS4T]

^^^if your street tyres are ok you aren't going fast enough. I found that even with much better suspension (or perhaps because of much better suspension) my high performance street tyres would pack up after about 1 1/2 laps. Semi slicks were an improvement but a pain on the road so now I have some second hand slicks on a spare set of rims for the track. And yes better tyres and suspension will improve your stopping power (but not a cheap fix!).

[mystery_kid]

yeah i have r33 gtr rims and federal rsr for track rims, just tried to find the r33 rims as cheap as possible - dont care about gutter rash etc, they are just track rims and they are light and strong

having other rims just allows you to not have to spend so much cash on your street tyres and you dont have to keep changing them when you destroy them after a few track days

and with a cheap semi slick like the rsr you get way more grip than any expensive bridgestone street tyre

[Ruxis]

Hey Todd what is trail braking???

Yeah I'd like to get a second set but its all money haha. One day when I can get more into

I'm sure with the sway bars I'll see that the tyres are shit haha. But seriously in the car last time I could barely hold the wheel! Was a great ab work out actually

[GTSBoy]

Trail braking is where you keep on the brakes late in a corner - just not at high braking force. It's not going to solve your problems. The simple fact is that a car will do the lowest possible time around a track when it is AT ALL TIMES undergoing the maximum possible acceleration. Remember that acceleration includes forwards, backwards, left and right directions. In order to meet the above condition, you MUST brake as hard as possible when you are braking. The problem is that only really really talented drivers are able to operate a car at the above condition. Everyone else has to accept some compromises.

[89CAL]

ABS should be able to handle a 4-wheel lockup. ABS works by watching the ABS sensors; if the sensor stops rotating, then the ABS interprets that as lockup and releases pressure, then re-applies pressure. It can watch all 4 sensors simultaneously.

Simplest method though is to learn threshold braking, where you become the ABS unit, and learn how to apply maximum braking pressure without locking wheels. (My 32 has ABS, which I think I have only ever activated maybe twice in the 11 years I have owned the car.)

I wouldn't bother too much with "better" rear pads, since the greater majority of the braking is taken by the front brakes. For some additional cooling, remove the backing plates from the front rotor assembly.

Yeah i think i got a bit mixed up. I was thinking at least one other wheel had to be moving so the abs unit could see that x amount of wheels at y km/h and z amount of wheels at 0km/h and assumes a lookup on the wheels doing 0km/h

Then i realised this doesn't work on a 4 wheel lockup as if all the wheels are doing the same speed it doesnt see a problem

Oh well lol

[Roy]

Trail braking is where you keep on the brakes late in a corner - just not at high braking force. It's not going to solve your problems. The simple fact is that a car will do the lowest possible time around a track when it is AT ALL TIMES undergoing the maximum possible acceleration. Remember that acceleration includes forwards, backwards, left and right directions. In order to meet the above condition, you MUST brake as hard as possible when you are braking. The problem is that only really really talented drivers are able to operate a car at the above condition. Everyone else has to accept some compromises.

You have to be an engineer?