Aca Forum/interview!

[NickR33]

But in Vic it was something like 280-300 last year. Yet all the stories, coverage, fines trying to promote safety etc and nationally we are losing something like 35% more people to suicide, yet this doesnt get near the attention that road safety gets.

most people don't realise the biggest killer of 18-35yr old males is suicide... but unlike cars or skin cancer there isn't a product to be sold or fines to hand out

I get the shits with the older generations who think its perfectly acceptable to have young males do dangerous jobs like work in mines or fight in the armed services but yet they refuse to accept or provide ways for young men to exercise their NEED to take risks in everyday life

happy for you to be shot at so we feel safe but we aren't going to let you do anything dangerous in our own community... and if you do we'll label you as criminals

[R31Nismoid]

Yeah unfortunately that was the attitude of one of the people present Nick.

The old "I've heard it all before, more venues changes nothing" type of view. They are but once piece of a larger puzzle unfortunately. Many things combine to make a solution not one single thing.

But i do agree with you as well Bris on a few points. Certainly comes down to revenue as the main driver for it all.

Hoon laws is political in that it gets votes and income generation at the same time. It also looks good for Police to have the stats on crushed/impounded cars.

Gov't also won't stop Holden/Ford bring out cars that make 450-500hp from the factory as its income, and same with the aftermarket parts industry. It's income for business and then it's also income once again for the Vic Police who then go and fine people for the aftermarket modifications.

It's all primarily money drive so realistically the top brass will never change their attitudes.

I however disagree about your local track comment Bris. The attitude of youth today is such that if it isn't placed right in front of their eyes, they simply won't find it themselves. They need to be pushed in the right direction be it by choice or by mandatory requirement. (obviously a generalisation, but overall I feel its mostly true).

It took a lot of convincing for a few people to come to the track for the SAU Nats, guys that otherwise wouldn't - however after that did - eyes were opened to the level of fun it actually was. Which i think was a really great outcome.

[Odium]

There was just another Hoon Story on ACA, about 5 minutes ago. It was a bunch of stock footage (3 or 4 clips reused from the Prinny Highway story from the other week) and it mostly revolved around a guy with a VT SS who had an accident and injured a mate while hooning with friends in the car and how he's vowed never to hoon again and to take it to and keep it on the track.

The story finished and it went back to the main girl and she said "These Hoons are giving Car Enthusiasts a bad name".

The final quote from her makes me think that they are beginning to make a differentiation between hoons and car enthusiasts.

[AGE]

The attitude of youth today is such that if it isn't placed right in front of their eyes, they simply won't find it themselves. They need to be pushed in the right direction be it by choice or by mandatory requirement. (obviously a generalisation, but overall I feel its mostly true).

Well said mate (I deal with young apprentice's daily, and its 100% true!)

[R31Nismoid]

Thanks mate

Unfortunately "Top Brass" and Politicians simply dismiss it without really giving it enough thought. I really was biting my tongue at one point when the dismissing stuff was in full swing, just shows how utterly out of touch the older generation is getting.

I think the gap is actually growing as well with the rapid onset of technology, social media and so on. Gone are the days most tradie's would struggle to use a PC for anything other than MYOB for instance. These days they carry one around in their pockets essentially.

But alas... It largely falls on deaf ears. The Gov't & Police at best would commission 40-50yo "experts", throw in a lot of meaningless statistics and just carry on with their crusade on "Hoons" as it's driven by money. I say it right now - in 10 years time the problem will not be better by one iota - and in fact it'll be worse.

Same as the road toll. It is now at a point where it cannot be lowered without widespread changes simply because:

1. More people are on the roads driving each year

2. Cost of living is becoming higher, so there WILL be more shitboxes on the roads

3. Gov't spending on roads and safety is simply not enough

4. The amount of people using scooters/bikes will also increase, and without better education/training more will die

10 years time, we will be in a worse spot than we are now, laws will be tougher & impounds/defects higher than ever - yet the problem will be worse.

That's Gov't & Police bureaucracy at it's finest.

/rant

[MrWindsurf]

Another thing that annoys me is the constant lowering of speed limits, new cars these days come with ABS ESC DSC Traction control and can stop from a higher speed in a shorter distance than cars for 20 years ago. So why are the speed limits always being reduced. I can understand school zones or high incident areas but lowering the speed on a country road from 100 to 90.... where is the point. Is it because the government are so money hungry they have setup all the cameras they can so no one speeds anymore... So they lower the speed limit and hey presto anyone who forgets will get nabbed?

[PhoenixGSR]

Totally agree, Ash & Andrew.

I've been with many car clubs who always raise this topic and we have never found a solution that meets everyones needs, because in theory all the suggested solutions will work to a smaller extent, however nothing will ever change unless the Government takes a consolidated approach to take lives more seriously than they do money.

So, if you dont fix the problem from the top of "management" nothing ever changes.

I do believe however that if facilities are made more available or at the very least at a cheaper cost, you will have less dragging and drifting and speeding on the streets. If the government allowed some leniency for cars going to and back from an authorised/regulated/CAMS AASA affiliated event it will also promote "taking it off the streets".

[M34N]

Another thing that annoys me is the constant lowering of speed limits, new cars these days come with ABS ESC DSC Traction control and can stop from a higher speed in a shorter distance than cars for 20 years ago. So why are the speed limits always being reduced. I can understand school zones or high incident areas but lowering the speed on a country road from 100 to 90.... where is the point. Is it because the government are so money hungry they have setup all the cameras they can so no one speeds anymore... So they lower the speed limit and hey presto anyone who forgets will get nabbed?

Unfortunately, the people who set the speed limits (VicRoads etc) have to cater to the lowest common denominator, which means speed limits will have to stay low. If you make a road that was 80km/h to 100km/h, and the 80yo granny takes her 1985 Corolla out for a spin in the wet and she loses it around a corner because she has the reaction time of a turtle, there will be too much outcry. People need to drive within their limits/abilities, which unfortunately, a lot of people are incapable of doing.

A lot of roads in the outer suburbs (examples; Narre Warren North, Berwick, Cranbourne, Pakenham) were designed originally as country roads with higher speed limits, significantly lower traffic volumes and a population only a percentage of what it is now. Now we have entire suburbs built around these unsealed and narrow roads, the Governments/Councils can't keep up with population growth and demands of road users and people in general. Look what happened in the floods of February 2011, when some of these suburbs were hit hard due to lack of proper infrastructure, entire roads (including Princes Hwy, Narre North Rd, Princes Fwy, Pakenham train line) were inaccessible, some for days, until waters receded.

There was also a report in the papers recently about how the Government creates bottlenecks and traffic jams to slow down traffic intentionally to lower the road toll. Also reducing speed limits to achieve the same effect. This is not a solution to the problem, it only creates angry drivers who have to spend more time/money stuck on shitty roads because their taxes are being wasted on more feasibility studies to decide what they should do to fix it, ie. bureaucracy. Look at the latest study into the Western Ring Road/Eastern Fwy tunnel - they commissioned a study into that years ago, when Sir Rod Eddington decided on a route and it was listed as an urgent priority as it was all ready to go, now only a couple days ago they announced another $20 million for more studies for the same route. It's sickening how the lack of action and bureaucracy goes around in a vicious circle and nothing gets achieved.

So in the end, more people using roads, an older population, more suburbs built in areas where the roads are already sub-standard, lack of investment in new/existing infrastructure, more bureaucracy and spending that achieve nothing but more planning studies, police who enforce stupid and outdated laws, a Government who only encourage more traffic as a solution to road trauma, and a state road authority only interested in reducing speed limits all adds up to more frustrated road users. It's ridiculous.

[R31Nismoid]

Unfortunately, the people who set the speed limits (VicRoads etc) have to cater to the lowest common denominator,

Yes but why are the speed limits constantly dropping all over the country?

Is the denominator really actually becoming lower and lower? Of course not.

However if it actually is, then WHY is it becoming lower? The simple reason once again of driver training, education & the fact licensing is FAR to easy to attain.

But again that'll never change because it's Political & Financially suicidal. Restrict licenses, restrict people buying cars. Do that, annoy big business and then fight a war you wont win politically.

A lot of roads in the outer suburbs (examples; Narre Warren North, Berwick, Cranbourne, Pakenham) were designed originally as country roads with higher speed limits, significantly lower traffic volumes and a population only a percentage of what it is now. Now we have entire suburbs built around these unsealed and narrow roads, the Governments/Councils can't keep up with population growth and demands of road users and people in general. Look what happened in the floods of February 2011, when some of these suburbs were hit hard due to lack of proper infrastructure, entire roads (including Princes Hwy, Narre North Rd, Princes Fwy, Pakenham train line) were inaccessible, some for days, until waters receded.

Another result of a reactive Government with pathetic planning & governance to let it occur in the first place. It should never have been allowed to happen in the first place.

Don't mistake my point of view as disagreeing with you - because I totally agree.

Australia is just becoming such a farce these days it's pathetic and makes me sick. Hardly anyone that's in power these days is for the good of the country. They are just in it for the farken good of themselves.

[xALmoN]

run for politics ash... minister for transport victoria.

[M34N]

Yes but why are the speed limits constantly dropping all over the country?

Is the denominator really actually becoming lower and lower? Of course not.

However if it actually is, then WHY is it becoming lower? The simple reason once again of driver training, education & the fact licensing is FAR to easy to attain.

Well, I don't believe the LCD is dropping (or gaining), never intended to say that. My point was more other factors contributing to lower speed limits;

• Increasing number of cars on the road across Australia, along with general population growth - Australia was 18 million only a decade or so ago, Melbourne was 3 million, now both 23~ million and 4.2 million respectively
• Many roads incapable of handling this surge in traffic volume as they were designed a million years ago
• New roads being built to traffic volumes of yesteryear, eg. Monash Fwy, including Hallam Bypass and Pakenham Bypass - already exceeding traffic volumes they were never expected to reach until 2030
• Existing roads/infrastructure not being upgraded to suit the growing population
• One accident on ANY of these major arterial roads leads to chaos for hours as there is little to no alternatives for people living in most places (bringing up the lack of infrastructure in the outer suburbs, including public transport options)
• More old people on the road today, with Baby Boomers etc all starting to become a larger portion of the population
• More high-powered cars becoming more easily/cheaply available to Bogan Joe and his dog, and hence the never-ending police chases on TV and 'hoons' we love to hear about
• Police and Government attempting to lower the road toll by rambling on insistently about speeding kills, hooning etc
• Governments interested in speeding revenue and the like
• Never ending politics with study after study about how roads are congested - but NOTHING GETS DONE ABOUT IT. This is the main sticking point IMO, lack of action and planning/funding has lead to most of these other issues discussed above.

I agree with a lot of your points Ash, and understand your perspective too, but it's not just driver training and education.

Government is trying to shift the blame from their lack of proper infrastructure and planning/spending on roads and transport by blaming speeding, hoons etc for these issues. Shifting the blame - lesson 1 in politics. If anything, the lowest common denominator in politics has surely fallen.

Edited April 3, 2012 by M34N

[R31Nismoid]

Oh i do agree about the increases and the shortcomings.

Kinda getting away from the actual "point" of the thread which was fixing the apparent "hoon epidemic" which is more so related to education/training/license as opposed to over use of roads and poor infrastructure planning

It is laregly an overnight "epicdemic" simply because it wins votes, fills Gov't coffers and sells newspapers/armchairs. All of which are a result of larely nothing more than simple reactive nature of Vic Police/Gov't rather than being proactive.

I raised an interesting point...

How much money would it cost to educate/train people at the start?

VS

Paying for extra Police, Law introduction, TAC/Injuries, Payouts, Court/Jail costs at the end?

Of course that one went answered and the people that should've sat there silent

I'd place an educated guess it's be cheaper to do it at the start as prevention... But it's nowhere near as lucrative as it is at the end (Public coffers/Political votes & image)

[Turboterrorist]

FWDs for all P-platers: Obviously FWD being more hairdresser than an MX5, people won't like it, but FWDs are so much easier to drive fast and more or less eliminate the problem of too much power being to blame. So then, governments will be forced to move on and attack something else because it won't be the car's fault.

I say 'easier to drive fast,' because young folks will always want to enjoy their machine no matter what. Government needs to embrace this and work with it rather than attack it. The next step is off-street facilities.

I also think a Modified Car Scheme similar to the Club Permit scheme would seperate the enthusiasts from the joyriders. So you could get a modified car registered to be driven 90 days a year between 7am and 7pm like club plates. Those of us who just like cruising once in a while in our projects can do so, and cops can get tougher on mods for full-reg cars/dailys. It also takes away the issue of noisey cars at night which I think is the main reason people hate 'hoons.' Ideally under the scheme as long as the car had operating lights/indicators, seatbelts/harnesses, was of a ride-height that won't destroy the roads, and were not as loud as an F1, they should be ok.

[KURAUN]

actually fwd's are more dangerous to drive than rwd. They understeer much more and once you start to lose control its harder to regain, especially for a novice driver

its not what car they have, its the attitude of the people driving in the end

[Turboterrorist]

actually fwd's are more dangerous to drive than rwd. They understeer much more and once you start to lose control its harder to regain, especially for a novice driver

its not what car they have, its the attitude of the people driving in the end

How do you come to that conclusion? RWD is more fun because you have to do more to keep it under control (i.e. it's more dangerous). It's pretty undisputable that FWD is the safest for the panicy, clueless beginner.

Understeer is much safer for the novice driver - most modern cars have an understeer tendancy because of this, even newer RWDs. When a car oversteers, you have to be very precise to get it back under control without eating up too much space. When the novice loses control, the last thing they do is stay calm. In a RWD they hit the brakes or overcorrect which ends up with someone's door hitting a tree. With a front wheel drive, not only is it harder to upset the car's balance in a corner, but when you do, the result is rarely as dramatic and there's less you can do wrong. Rear ends tend to let go fairly suddenly, especially when not driven correctly, whereas front ends tend to surrender to physics more slowly.

For those with more experience, RWD can be quite safe as it's quite predictable, but we're not talking about Lewis Hamilton here

Edit: I'm by no means saying you can't wreck say a Civic Type R for example, but it's not as easy to do as an S15 or something.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Turboterrorist

[W0rp3D]

have i missed this?

If not any idea what night it will be on?

[KURAUN]

How do you come to that conclusion? RWD is more fun because you have to do more to keep it under control (i.e. it's more dangerous). It's pretty undisputable that FWD is the safest for the panicy, clueless beginner.

Understeer is much safer for the novice driver - most modern cars have an understeer tendancy because of this, even newer RWDs. When a car oversteers, you have to be very precise to get it back under control without eating up too much space. When the novice loses control, the last thing they do is stay calm. In a RWD they hit the brakes or overcorrect which ends up with someone's door hitting a tree. With a front wheel drive, not only is it harder to upset the car's balance in a corner, but when you do, the result is rarely as dramatic and there's less you can do wrong. Rear ends tend to let go fairly suddenly, especially when not driven correctly, whereas front ends tend to surrender to physics more slowly.

For those with more experience, RWD can be quite safe as it's quite predictable, but we're not talking about Lewis Hamilton here

Edit: I'm by no means saying you can't wreck say a Civic Type R for example, but it's not as easy to do as an S15 or something.

really can't be fucked arguing with someone that's clearly trolled over from ns.com

I've driven rwd/4wd and fwd within the law on the streets i still find fwd to be more dangerous than both previous cars I've had

obviously if your being a dick on the roads anything is going to be more dangerous whether it be fwd, rwd or 4wd

then tyres, suspension, drivers level comes into it, yes I'm not a perfect driver however I drive sensibly on the streets and follow the road rules

I'm just saying in my experience i find fwd to be most dangerous, and its hard to say fwd/rwd/4wd is better worse because people still have accidents in all types of cars

people did just fine years ago when cars were majority rwd.

either way not going to bother anymore cbf said my piece

[Jezza-gtR]

It's not the cars.. It' the people driving them.

[JZP]

Oh i do agree about the increases and the shortcomings.

Kinda getting away from the actual "point" of the thread which was fixing the apparent "hoon epidemic" which is more so related to education/training/license as opposed to over use of roads and poor infrastructure planning

It is laregly an overnight "epicdemic" simply because it wins votes, fills Gov't coffers and sells newspapers/armchairs. All of which are a result of larely nothing more than simple reactive nature of Vic Police/Gov't rather than being proactive.

I raised an interesting point...

How much money would it cost to educate/train people at the start?

VS

Paying for extra Police, Law introduction, TAC/Injuries, Payouts, Court/Jail costs at the end?

Of course that one went answered and the people that should've sat there silent

I'd place an educated guess it's be cheaper to do it at the start as prevention... But it's nowhere near as lucrative as it is at the end (Public coffers/Political votes & image)

Just to reinforce the lucrative side of things - wife gets busted doing a few k's over 80 by the TOG in Kinglake - fines her anyway. He then goes on to put his important safety hat on - states that they've had 'complaints from the locals about hoons'. I ask when the complaints are lodged - he admits they are late at night, when groups of cars come up and do burnouts all over the main road.

So why is it they blitz Kinglake during the day to specifically ping Mr & Mrs Joe average, when the public is demanding something different?

Don't get me started on the reduction of speed limits - they reduced a wide well made 100km 3-lane country road (from Whittlesea to Kinglake) to 80km. People now do 60 and 70km/h in a previous 100km zone - it is plain distracting and mind numbing.

I've been told the reduction in speed limit is to reduce road deaths, based on recent fatalities. How can we confirm if these recent fatalities were related to 'unsafe' roads? Or were these young people travelling within or above the speed limit ?

On what basis are these speed limits being dropped so dramatically in country roads?

....Rant over....

[adis]

really can't be f**ked arguing with someone that's clearly trolled over from ns.com

I've driven rwd/4wd and fwd within the law on the streets i still find fwd to be more dangerous than both previous cars I've had

obviously if your being a dick on the roads anything is going to be more dangerous whether it be fwd, rwd or 4wd

then tyres, suspension, drivers level comes into it, yes I'm not a perfect driver however I drive sensibly on the streets and follow the road rules

I'm just saying in my experience i find fwd to be most dangerous, and its hard to say fwd/rwd/4wd is better worse because people still have accidents in all types of cars

people did just fine years ago when cars were majority rwd.

either way not going to bother anymore cbf said my piece

FWD harder to drive than RWD hahahahahahah!!! You must be kidding!