Lets Talk Water Meth Injection

[shombre]

Hi guys, this is my car that Trent's talking about. I might as well address the questions directly Apologies for the long post.

It's a 2JZ-GTE unopened except for mild cams (HKS 264s, 9mm lift).

Sky30, your setup is probably most comparable to mine in that you're running a 3L bottom end. TurboS, in the best twin tradition , are twin GT2860RS with Tial 0.64A/R V-band housings, mounted on a V-band modified Blitz TT manifold, which is a rare item for these motors. Custom fabrication +++ for inlet, intercooler piping and twin discharge piping done by an artist fabricator friend of mine.

I run a customised Snow Performance Stage 3 kit. I make my own mix, spraying ~55:45 meth:distilled water early and in high volumes, 625cc primary and 375cc secondary nozzles. Price wise, the Boost Juice premix retails for about $4/L. Mine costs $1.55/L. No brainer

I use a ~10L boot mounted reservoir, and top up weekly, but it would easily last a month. The car is daily driven. I completely disagree with those who find it a "low quality" kit - I am not budget limited, I chose this kit, and my experience is anything but. Nothing has pooled, sludged, or obstructed - although again, my car doesn't sit, it gets driven like it should.

E85 is a half hour drive from me assuming zero traffic, and it's not what I want to be doing on a busy workday or weekend. My fuel setup is simple - single in-tank pump, stock lines, rail, reg, drop in 800cc injectors - as is my engine management (PFC), and for my daily driven purposes, it has been flawless.

My mix is well controlled and stored, and to re-do my fuel system properly for E85 would have been another few thousand dollars, plus inconvenience, and the possibility of fuel smell in the cabin etc from using aftermarket lines - not an option for me, I have a baby seat in back with precious cargo, who, might I say, LOVES the sound of an external gate

Before I took it to Trent, I road tuned it, and it was very happy with +6deg timing advance across the board - including at peak torque, with ZERO knock audible. I am big on safety, so we ended up with +4deg of timing advance and significantly richer AFs than the mid 12s:1 at which WMI really starts to shine. Furthermore, 4psi boost increase netted an extra 65rwkW. Any setup making >15rwkW/lb of boost is frigging efficient, and the WMI I'm SURE plays a big part in that, notwithstanding the time and effort I put in to matching all components in my setup. I don't think E85 would yield significantly higher gains.

Finally, an added benefit I saw when I road tuned it. I could run almost 20% leaner overall, and this translated to a direct improvement in fuel economy of 20%. More power, less fuel used = win for a daily driven application

To give you an idea of how effective the WMI is - I drove 120km total yesterday, in high ambient temperatures, to and from work and straight to the dyno. First pull on the dyno, NO cooldown time, at my street boost yielded 390rwkW - bang on exactly what it was when I got it tuned previously. As Trent says, it provides consistent, repeatable and reliable results irrespective of ambient temperature- IF the mix is controlled and stored properly. Logged IATs drop from a heatsoaked steady state by over 50% - within 3 SECONDS. There is no FMIC setup that will do this so rapidly.

Needless to say, the car is brilliant to drive on the street

Hope this helps others thinking about going this route. It takes a bit of care, but I would unreservedly recommend it for a daily driven vehicle. Happy to answer any questions as needed.

Edited May 11, 2012 by shombre

[Mitcho_7]

Was thinking about this today, if you found a good glass cleaner with some methanol content, you could run the WMI feed directly from the washer bottle correct? (since most skylines have 3+ litre washer bottles) Leaving the only thing visible in the engine bay the injection nozzle and line.....

And the pump...

[ARTZ]

just hide it under the guard

[blk94r33]

just hide it under the guard

[The Mafia]

Was thinking about this today, if you found a good glass cleaner with some methanol content, you could run the WMI feed directly from the washer bottle correct? (since most skylines have 3+ litre washer bottles) Leaving the only thing visible in the engine bay the injection nozzle and line.....

The pump on the washer bottle has no where near enough pressure to atomise the mixture properly.

Most WMI pumps are 150psi, with quite a few that are 200psi +.

I've had the nozzle out and its like steam the mist is that fine. And thats how you want it - atomised to the shithouse for the best distribution.

[Mitcho_7]

I think it would be better stealth wise to mount the pump, a smaller resovoir etc on fab'd up brackets all in the boot of a 33 with as much as possible in where the battery and fuel tank access is. Then run the hose to the engine bay under the car or something.

[blk94r33]

The pump on the washer bottle has no where near enough pressure to atomise the mixture properly.

Most WMI pumps are 150psi, with quite a few that are 200psi +.

I've had the nozzle out and its like steam the mist is that fine. And thats how you want it - atomised to the shithouse for the best distribution.

I didn't mean using the washer bottle pumps to feed the WMI. I meant using the washer bottle as a reservoir, but still keeping it functional as a washer bottle. I doubt the washer motor would even be able to over-come boost pressure?

[Mitcho_7]

I didn't mean using the washer bottle pumps to feed the WMI. I meant using the washer bottle as a reservoir, but still keeping it functional as a washer bottle. I doubt the washer motor would even be able to over-come boost pressure?

so the meth/water mix would be used to wash your windscreen as well if required to? Would the supplied pump be designed to work with the washer bottle though?

If so, I suppose thats an option as well, but personally I would prefer them sperate as long as it all fits in the boot nicely.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Mitcho_7

[GTRNUR]

so the meth/water mix would be used to wash your windscreen as well if required to?

I suppose thats an option as well, but personalkly I would prefer them sperate I think.

So you let your car actually get dirty enough that you use the washers? I think ive used the washer bottle perhaps twice in my life. Water/meth tank makes much more sense to me.

And yes you can use it to wash your windows with too. Have you never cleaned glass with metho and a newspaper?

[Hanaldo]

So you let your car actually get dirty enough that you use the washers? I think ive used the washer bottle perhaps twice in my life. Water/meth tank makes much more sense to me.

You must live in an area with 0 insect population

[GTSBoy]

Huh? My car get's washed every 6 months. And even then that comes at the cost of something esle I should be doing.

[ARTZ]

lol..yeah same, but if i had his i car i would probably wash it daily, or better yet get my supermodel girlfriend to do it in a bikini with lots of bubbles

[Mitcho_7]

Just seems like a waste of water/meth to use it on your windscreen IMO

I still think something tidy like this in the boot would be much more appealing.

http://howertonengin...ineering-tanks/

Edited May 11, 2012 by Mitcho_7

[ARTZ]

hell yeah thats a sexy little unit Mitch, mount it under the parcel shelf on some drawer runners so you can slide it in and out when you need to fill it

i found this how to interesting

http://www.turbomirage.com/water-alcohol-injection-installation-instructions.html

[GTScotT]

So you let your car actually get dirty enough that you use the washers? I think ive used the washer bottle perhaps twice in my life. Water/meth tank makes much more sense to me.

And yes you can use it to wash your windows with too. Have you never cleaned glass with metho and a newspaper?

Bugs at 200kph make quite the mess. There are times the spirited enthusiast will need those wipers to continue lol

Different strokes for different folks.

[blk94r33]

Just seems like a waste of water/meth to use it on your windscreen IMO

I still think something tidy like this in the boot would be much more appealing.

http://howertonengin...ineering-tanks/

I was thinking along the lines of GTRNUR, my washers rarely get used, and the tank is huge, maybe not for a track car, but for a "spirited-driving" daily, using the washer bottle would save running lines from back to front and the (small) cost of the tank, and be less obvious than a seperate mounted tank. If the kit has an external pump that runs a line from the reserve to the pump, I don't see how it couldn't be adapted. If the washer motors/bottle etc can't handle metho you could still run water injection alone.

[JustinP]

The idea of adding 5-10% nitromethane has me intrigued! Would be cheap enough to do at $75 for 4 liters as you would use bugger all. And how cool would it be running nitromethane (even though the amount is tiny)!

Has anyone here done it before? I understand when nitromethane combusts that one of the outputs is nitric acid, would this damage the bores over time? Would be interested to see if it provided any additional gains in power. I might give it a go in my car when I get it all going.

Add a drop of blue food colouring to the 5lt mix and you can call it windex injection. You can actually use some kinds of industrial glass cleaners too, as they contain up to 25% methanol.

Also this is something else that I find interesting...

http://www.hobbyparts.com.au/store/item/nitro004l/fuelnitromethane/

5-10% nitro is considered safe. Higher concentrations can fall out of suspension, but would probably remain in solution better if mixed with methanol first. There is quite a few threads on the waterinjection info forum about this.

[GTRNUR]

The idea of adding 5-10% nitromethane has me intrigued! Would be cheap enough to do at $75 for 4 liters as you would use bugger all. And how cool would it be running nitromethane (even though the amount is tiny)!

Has anyone here done it before? I understand when nitromethane combusts that one of the outputs is nitric acid, would this damage the bores over time? Would be interested to see if it provided any additional gains in power. I might give it a go in my car when I get it all going.

In the concentrations you'd be burning it, nitric acid production wouldn't be an issue.

Also consider that its going in with water and a whole lot of fuel so it blows out the exhaust pretty quickly and at high temperatures. Its not as though its a top fuel car running a 90% nitro mix. No where near as bad as a diesel with sulphuric acid eating its exhaust. Considering the quality of the oils we use and how regularly we change them compared to a diesel, polutants don't stay in the engine very long.

I've been meaning to post this link too:

760whp skyline with direct port water injection. There is a stack of information skyline specific in this thread. Dyno sheets, before/afters etc..

http://www.aquamist....ht=nitromethane

[Mitcho_7]

I was thinking along the lines of GTRNUR, my washers rarely get used, and the tank is huge, maybe not for a track car, but for a "spirited-driving" daily, using the washer bottle would save running lines from back to front and the (small) cost of the tank, and be less obvious than a seperate mounted tank. If the kit has an external pump that runs a line from the reserve to the pump, I don't see how it couldn't be adapted. If the washer motors/bottle etc can't handle metho you could still run water injection alone.

Yeh, I could count on 1 hand the amount of times i have actually used my washer bottle so it makes sense to utilize it for something else. It could be an option if you are pressed for space or want a stealth setup. You will still have the external pump and i know someone suggested to mount it in the guard, but i dont think they like water to much, which could be problematic if its raining...

Im keen to see some people play around with some different setups!

[jet_r31]

Seriously if you are running that much power your gunna need a pretty serious fuel system anyway..

What I am really interested to see now is a E85 fueled car with WMI..

Will it be twice as awesome, or not really..

might give it a crack if no one else does:)

Thats what i was always going to be doing with the R31, the build has just blown out by yrs..and my brother is doing with his gemini atm, ollie on ct forum has already done it

on his 9.9(think that what it run) sec full street trim vl , stock rebuilt na bottom end to..

Theres a few other kits aswell, coolingmist, devils own etc...i have a cooling mist trunk kit on the stagea, fits in the back area well and plenty of room for shopping and kids shit

cheers

darren

Edited May 13, 2012 by jet_r31