Power Fc Ignition Timing Issue

[Gojira5767]

So I have an R34 GTT with many mods: Apexi PFC w/ commander/datalogit, GReddy Profec Type S EBC, GReddy Intake manifold and fuel rail, RC 1000cc injectors, Massive Precision Turbo, Tial WG, FMIC, HKS SSQV, Aeromotive FPR, AEM Wideband, 3" Turbo-back Apexi exhaust, NGK BKR7ES-11's regapped at .030.

On to my problem......

I've had the car now for about a month and a half and have been constantly working out the bugs. First was a new center section for the turbo due to an apparently recent rebuild that didn't include a thorough hot tanking and left bits of metal shavings in the oil feed line that led to blown seals and bearings. Fortunately it doesn't seem to have harmed any other parts of the engine yet, I have ran several quarts of oil through in an effort to remove the machining leftovers. Next came proper PCV/ catch can installation and hose routing seeing as how it only had valve cover breather filters and an unhooked PCV valve, as well as an un-plumbed AAC valve that was sucking in unmetered air. Also replaced the O2 sensor and saw a dramatic increase in fuel mileage as AFR's.

However, once all of these things were replaced and repaired I noticed that the car did not want to pull as hard as before and that even though the idle was more stable at 1000-1100rpms it did not want to stay running if I let it idle for too long. And as of now the car won't start at all. I've checked all of the usual suspects: AFM, New plugs AGAIN, no vac leaks, fuel pump is working great and have great fuel pressure. I am thinking it is my CAS, but not sure because if I take it out and spin it I can hear the fuel pump run and the injectors clicking. BUT when watching the FC Commander it only shows the car getting 4-7 degrees of timing under cranking. As well as when hooked up to Datalogit it wants to sit at 6000 load cell also while cranking. Im not sure why it is not getting more ignition timing while I am cranking it. My tuner is even scratching his head as to why the car won't start. Im guessing part of it is due to not being able to see the start up cranking ignition tables on the Datalogit screen and even by altering the whole map to 40 degrees it still only read 4-7 on the commander!?! Oh and the boost control kit setting is turned off as well as I have re-initialized the Com twice and re-loaded the map to no avail. Sorry for my super long first post on the site, but I am at my wits end on this one and USA forum support is a little lacking when it comes to this one. . Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

[Guilt-Toy]

have you got the standard ecu anywhere? try plugging that in and seeing if it starts?

does the rpm sit at 6000 with the hand controller as well? it might be a dud ecu.

[Gojira5767]

Unfortunately I don't have the factory ECU. A far as the rpm's the Datalogit only registers the cranking rpm's to be reaching around the 250-300 mark. But while cranking it, it says in the monitor screen the load sits at 6000 and timing dumps at 7 degrees max. Im thinking some sensor has failed or shorted. Thanks for the response btw! I knew SAU would come through for me!

[WMDC35]

I know a guy that recently had ignition problems with power fc, although was ithrough rev range not start up, after numerous replacements of parts changed the ecu and problem solved, see if you can get hold of another ecu as guilt toy recommends to try, maybe the tuner has something around for a start up test?

[DVS JEZ]

Check the spark plug condition and if they are sparking.

Check the cam timing is still correct

[Gojira5767]

I have replaced the spark plugs numerous times with no noticeable change. I am going to check for weak spark next. It tries to start occasionally but thats only when i get the max timing of 7 degrees. My wife drives a 33 also with a PFC. Similar mods but way different map, maf, injectors, etc. But im not sure if hers has been converted to a S2 engjne. It is basically set up almost identical as mine as far as the coils not having an igniter and hers has the apexi boost control kit. It would be nice to see if it works though. Im really hoping my ECU hasnt taken a dump on me.

[DVS JEZ]

Have u tried her pfc

[WMDC35]

33 & 34 should have different plugs on the pfc

[JonnoHR31]

The lower timing whilst cranking is normal and needed, when your cranking the motors only doing 200-300rpm so the piston isnt moving up and down very fast at all, therefore you dont need much timing to get the burn happening around TDC. What does injector duty look like whilst cranking?

[DVS JEZ]

33 & 34 should have different plugs on the pfc

My bad thought op had 33 aswell.

[Gojira5767]

Yeah I am pretty sure her plug is different than mine. I just rechecked spark and all are seeming very strong. I also disassembled the CAS and everything looks normal in there as well. I reassembled and still same scenario. I was teased a little when I tried to start for the first time today, b/c I noticed on the Commander that the timing jumped up to 22-30 and then it stalled again only to return to previous results. I haven't checked injector duty yet. Im starting to lean towards a sensor of some type, maybe still the CAS. Will a 95 Z32 CAS work? They have the same style plug and housing. Not sure if it needs re-pinning though. I did notice the part of Paul's FAQ about fake Z32 MAFs and noticed that mine matched the description, fortunately I had an extra known working one and installed that out of precaution, no change still. Has anyone ever encountered the "6000" load problem when watching data stream monitor on the Datalogit on the lower left of data stream window, to the left of the Timing parameter box?

[DVS JEZ]

Tell me if the spark plugs are wet after trying to start it

[Gojira5767]

The plugs are definitely wet and black. I had to change them after my continuous diagnostic cranking attempts. Injector duty is 0.3% while cranking. I did a little numbers checking with the wifes car. During cranking the timing does seem to match mine but her injector duty starts at 0.3% and then increases to 0.7-1.0% as it fires up. I am going to pull out my injectors for kicks and see if they are clogged up. But the duty seems a little low. Am I wrong on this assumption?

[DVS JEZ]

Check the cam timing if u havent already.

If the plugs are really wet but there is spark. Try trimming the injector percentage and see if u can get it to start.

Check all piping, check afm setting in power fc,

[rob82]

I wouldn't be concerned with that load value as it probably won't be using that for any kind of load detecting at crank. That duty cycle is probably right for cold crank with standard injectors - not 1000cc injectors. At a 300rpm (crank) allowable inj on time is 120/300 x 1000 = 400ms so at .3% dc injector on time is about 12ms which is quite a lot of fuel for crank.

I would try halving your cranking ms table. I often see "tuners" miss these tables when injectors are changed.

[JonnoHR31]

Yer try a little less fuel.

Also, before you even consider swapping the cas get a timing light on it, it sounds like the cas is fine and a timing light will confirm that.

Back to basics really, if its got spark it can only be fuel, timing (cam or or ignition) or a f**ked motor (very unlikely).

[Gojira5767]

I checked cam timing last night and it's on but I think it may have jumped time on the crank. It was about 6 teeth away on the cams from being lined up so I tried to turning it counter-clockwise just a bit and noticed the crank bolt wasnt very tight. It basically loosened up when i tried to turn it. So i stopped and went clockwise to tighten it back up to line the cams up. Im going to take off the lower cover and check the crank marks too. I dont think it slipped very much if any but i need that piece of mind. Once I know every thing is lined up i will do a compression test.

[Don Dada]

I wouldn't be concerned with that load value as it probably won't be using that for any kind of load detecting at crank. That duty cycle is probably right for cold crank with standard injectors - not 1000cc injectors. At a 300rpm (crank) allowable inj on time is 120/300 x 1000 = 400ms so at .3% dc injector on time is about 12ms which is quite a lot of fuel for crank.

I would try halving your cranking ms table. I often see "tuners" miss these tables when injectors are changed.

Doesnt the pfc cater for this when you re-scale the inj table?

OP....Is the inj correction/latency table set up, and proper afm selected?

Edited May 8, 2012 by Don Dada

[Gojira5767]

Proper AFM is selected for sure. I will have to take a look at the tables when i get home i cant recall what they are at the moment.

[rob82]

Doesnt the pfc cater for this when you re-scale the inj table?

No during crank it uses the cranking ms vs ect table. STD Nissan ecu's are the same and should compensated for when running large injectors.