Spat Power Steering Belt With New Ross Tuffbond

[femno]

Had my car in with Chris, noticed the balancer was wobbly, it had some crazy runouts so took it straight off and whacked a brand new nissan on.

Ross the man himself offered only a half price deal, which was piss poor considering the work it had done up until then.

[GTR_JOEY]

Yes that is pretty crap, I will keep an eye on it

[BCNR33GT-R]

It's very common with r32 gtrs

[rob82]

Just did a full build on a RAs the inline 6 configuration has great 1st order and 2nd order harmonics, but inherently bad at 3rd order harmonics, having an effective dampener is extremely important. More relevant as we see RB's hitting over 6-7-8000RPM in their normal factory rev range!

I'm pretty sure mine is faulty, and have ordered a brand new standard balancer to see if the problem really is the dampener.

If I leave it as is it will:

1.keep throwing belts at high rpm

2.cause other damage to engine components such as the block(cracking from harmonic vibrations),

flywheel bolts maybe rattling loose,

and oil pump damage/failure.

I'll post here again once I have changed the dampener

Did you have an inductive crank sensor? If so you can measure the third order harmonics by watching how the peak to peak voltage changes at specific crank angles vs rpm.

It's hard to measure second order harmonics without adding a delta strain gauge to the crank journal and using high speed logging - nothing a cheap oscilloscope can't do.

It would nice to think this level of R&D was involved during the product verification process.

Edited January 30, 2013 by rob82

[GTRsean]

Think so, three wire pickup 1mm or so from trigger teeth.

Who knows about the R&D done for specific applications... seems to me like it would be easy for 'them' to take a V8 design dampener and apply it straight to any other engine configs. Who knows if they actually tune the damn things lol.

All I know is, now it ain't harmonic-ing , and if it is, it would be within acceptable factory levels (as in not noticeable).

I like this statement: (from zhome.com)

And the purpose of the doohickey on the front of the crank - call it a harmonic balancer or a vibration dampener or the Grand Panjandrum With the Little Round Button On Top, that doesn't change its function - is to reduce the damaging effect of this pulsating, vibrating, harmonic-laden force twisting the crank.

(speedtalk.com)

They are talking about hemi 6's lol...

You are correct in that Inline 6's have a large 3rd order, 1st mode, torsion peak near 5000rpm, although this does vary a bit with engine size. Smaller engines have stiffer / lighter cranks and the peak is a little higher in the rpm range, larger engines the opposite. In the case of the 3rd order peak at 5000, the resonant frequency of the crank would be 3 x 5000 / 60 = 250 cps. (Hz). The next higher peak in the rpm range would be 2.5th order occuring at 250 cps x 60 / 2.5 = 6000 rpm. The next after that would be 2.0nd order occuring at 250 cps x 60 / 2.0 = 7500 rpm. These peaks would be of significant height, but quite a bit smaller than the 3rd order, usually 1/2 - 1/3.

I have seen the 3rd order peaks in these engine go over 2.0° twist p-p, that is 1° degree each way from neutral. Generally, the OEM's do not allow more than about 0.4° p-p for long term durability on an I6, and that is at OEM power levels.

[R32 TT]

Thought I'd just chime in again on this subject.

RB26/30 is back going again - fixed the bent valves due to the cambelt jump - all good.

It now has the custom ATI (with Crank trigger 24 teeth - posted on previous pages) and rolled off the Dyno with almost no real testing and went V8 Bashing at Powercruise #44.

Guess what. Power Steering belt stayed on. No change to motor.

so just to recap - had ATI originally - changed over to Ross with Trigger wheel - immediately started throwing power steering belts - tried extra tensioner (paid for it in fact..) - didn't fix the issue, jumped a couple of teeth on cam belt and lunched motor.... fixed head and put ATI back on. No dramas.

I leave it to you to make your own assumptions.

Ross Damper with 12 tooth trigger wheel for sale.

[abr33]

Has anyone else tried machining front lip off the pulley to 1mm over belt height to stop it climbing?

Mine has never spat since (touchwood) and wondering if its coincidence or a fix.

Also R32TT how high over the belt height does the ATI pulley lip sit?

[SimonR32]

Thought I'd just chime in again on this subject.

RB26/30 is back going again - fixed the bent valves due to the cambelt jump - all good.

It now has the custom ATI (with Crank trigger 24 teeth - posted on previous pages) and rolled off the Dyno with almost no real testing and went V8 Bashing at Powercruise #44.

Guess what. Power Steering belt stayed on. No change to motor.

so just to recap - had ATI originally - changed over to Ross with Trigger wheel - immediately started throwing power steering belts - tried extra tensioner (paid for it in fact..) - didn't fix the issue, jumped a couple of teeth on cam belt and lunched motor.... fixed head and put ATI back on. No dramas.

I leave it to you to make your own assumptions.

Ross Damper with 12 tooth trigger wheel for sale.

haha I was wondering when you were going to post something up here

If it makes you feel any better I know of another 600rwhp built RB that is getting a rebuilt motor due to issues with a ROSS balancer

Edited October 21, 2013 by SimonR32

[sky30]

What sort of issues caused the rebuild?

[SimonR32]

What sort of issues caused the rebuild?

The Ross balancer caused the issue... I don't really concentrate any more when people talk about issues with them as there are so many reported it's just not worth even risking it.

It was something to do with wobby balancer flogging out the keyway and destroying the crank.

[GTR_JOEY]

not dis regarding every one elses posts, but I haven't really had any trouble with the ross balancer. I've driven close to 20,000km on mine and only spat a power steering belt once,.. that's with over 400rwkw

I recently pulled the balancer off... the key way, the pump and the crank all look to be in good condition

that was on an R33 crank using an r32 power steering pump

I also suspect that if the harmonics were out it would show up as volatile on the timing log graph??

[R32 TT]

not dis regarding every one elses posts, but I haven't really had any trouble with the ross balancer. I've driven close to 20,000km on mine and only spat a power steering belt once,.. that's with over 400rwkw

I recently pulled the balancer off... the key way, the pump and the crank all look to be in good condition

that was on an R33 crank using an r32 power steering pump

I also suspect that if the harmonics were out it would show up as volatile on the timing log graph??

That's fair enough too. I'm sure it doesn't happen in all cases. Perhaps a few of us have had specific engine combos, or even a bad 'batch' or what I don't know. I can only speak from my personal experience which is just one engine. I'm sure the majority of them out there do not cause an issue.

But - I think its fair to put up what I did experience in case it helps others diagnose a problem before it becomes a er... bigger 'issue' as it did for me.

[XRATED]

Good news sports fans. Ross performance parts/ ballancers has been bought out by an Australian engineering company.

There will be some lag time, but I would expect to see a comprehensive overhaul of all product lines as well as some new and exiting products/kits.

I for one like to support Aussie design and manufacturing where possible, so I'll be keen to try out some of the revised parts.

Cheers

Justin

... PS I have no afiliation with the company that has taken over Ross.

[Missileman]

Good news sports fans. Ross performance parts/ ballancers has been bought out by an Australian engineering company.

There will be some lag time, but I would expect to see a comprehensive overhaul of all product lines as well as some new and exiting products/kits.

I for one like to support Aussie design and manufacturing where possible, so I'll be keen to try out some of the revised parts.

Cheers

Justin

... PS I have no afiliation with the company that has taken over Ross.

Why would you think that?

[GTR_JOEY]

they will be based out of Albury

[GTRsean]

They got back to me about my balancer a little while back.

It was faulty from brand new, as the bonding inside it was separated from the inner ring or something like that.

Then they moved shop and lost it...

New company that took them over contacted me and said they would send me a replacement.

Still waiting for it to show up in the mail.

So after $2000 to buy the balancer and trigger setup, then nearly another $1000 to buy a new OEM dampener, all the belts that were chewed and labour costs, I'm over it

Still running oem and it won't be coming off anytime soon.

[SiR_RB]

don't be tight give us ya new one when it comes

[ido09s]

So how many oil pumps can we count that have failed with a Ross balancer?

[Mincus]

My ROSS experience,

I installed one of the more orignal Red units late last year on my R32 GTR with a HKS Step 2 Stroker even though it had been purchased some time earlier. I noticed a change in i guess engine noise/harmonics, earlier this year i rang and spoke with Ross and I found him to be more then helpful and offered for me to send it back if i was concerned and he would inspect it. I did send it back but after Omega had taken over in that time I have dealt with John Hinrichs all the way through and i can not speak highly enough about his approach to their product.

I do however have concerns after reading this thread.

1st. Paying good money for a product to only find it creates a problem i.e Power steering belts being thrown.

2nd. People deterimed not to use the correct crank bolt tighening torque and then reading things like "damaged key ways" etc being mentioned. I find it very hard to accept the ROSS is responsible for such issues. i.e. if the crank bolt, crank and balancer (what ever the brand) etc are all in serviceable condition and torqued correctly well then thats that,

3rd. Botton end failures …. I feel most of us either don't have the expertise or spend the money on it to actually determine why an engine "failed".

The amonut of "failed" engines and the number relating to oil pumps from what i have seen are "re-built" i.e the ratio of dead engines with re-built bottom ends compared to factory build engines either 30,20,25,26 are countless meaning maybe the heaps awesome fully sick built engines themselves

needs to be questioned not Nissan N1 oil pumps and ROSS balancers for that matter.

4th. I have heard people mention the ATI being rebuildable as in that being "better", the OEM unit doesn't get rebuilt …. Franky the Japs using ATI are all good and well but how often are they stripping them down ? If it means taken them off well i would rather reduce that amount of times i have to torque the crank bolt.

If ROSS was not Ozzie from a sales point of view, Say from the Sates or Japan would HKS and RH9 use them ??? power steering belt issue aside.

I have chosen an ECU rout which requires a crank pick up and YES I'm concerned about using my new ROSS MetalJacket i guess based on what people wright as i have no interest in having to rebuild a otherwise good bottom end, but then you also clearly see cars like the Mighty BC Automotive R32 using a ROSS balancer without spitting a what i can only guess a failry stressed bottom end ??

The length of the RB P/S belts has been mentioned and it clearly is an issue with a ROSS unit compared to an ATI, however aside from that can anyone really say a ATI balancer is actually "better" than the ROSS when thinking of the suggested other benefits of an aftermarket balancer.

[tricstar]

After reading this thread. Why would you even risk your $20k+ bottom end when there are products on the market that don't seem to have the same issues.