The Complete Ethanol Thread

[B-rice]

in ACT few days ago it was sitting at E76

[discopotato03]

Rather than starting another thread on ethanol I found an interesting test Ford did with low to mid ethanol blends ie 20-30% . If you know a bit about their Eco Boost series of engines you'll know they are about capacity down sizing with forced induction and direct fuel injection - chamber injection as opposed to port fuel injection .

Have a read , it basically covers testing with a CR increase from 10:1 to 11.9:1 and using E20 or E30 . The results are very similar to 91E10 type performance and consumption .

EDIT Link won't work , search

"Ford AVL Study concludes mid level ethanol blend attractive as long term future fuel for use in optimised engines in US" .

The thing that caught my eye is the octane rating of E20 - 96 oct and more significantly E30 - 101 octane .

If you're a Grinch like me that wants octane without the premium price it open possibilities . Blending E70 with 91 unleaded petrol would probably be the cheapest way to get 101 octane fuel , or a tad better since it's E35 not E30 , but it remains to be seen what sort of range you get . It'd be interesting to compare on a $/km basis to United 100 oct E10 since both 91 ULP and Eflex is cheaper than United 100E10 .

Thoughts ?

Cheers A .

Edited January 21, 2014 by discopotato03

[Cowboy1600]

Mixing your own fuels is not practical for a daily/semi daily. I also doubt you save much as the price difference is defeated by the increase in consumption.

For a track car it might be worth while. Blending inconsistent E85 with consistent 91 is possibly safer than a straight 85 tune. Of course you'll be down a bit of power. But if it was for a track, personally I'd buy a 44 of sucrogen straight from Shell to ensure quality and consistency of ethanol content. That would defeat and cost benefit.

Then again I could be talking out my ass....

[discopotato03]

BASTARD Oil Companies . I long suspected that oil companies could be using low grade - read cheap shit - base stocks as the petrol component in ethanol blend fuels .

It stands to reason that ethanol increases the octane rating of petrol fuel blends and if the bastards use really cheap low octane stock the ethanol does raise the octane up a little but it undoes some of the benefits ethanol has as a fuel ie evaporative cooling . Can you imagine how your average engine made in the last 20 odd years would react to using 82-87 octane base stock on its own ?

This is why you would see a performance and probably a consumption advantage if you could blend straight ethanol with real petrol .

No wonder budget "E10" gets such ratshit performance and economy .

Have a read , cheers Adrian .

Edit cut/paste not working , search

"Refineries and their position on octane levels"

Edited January 24, 2014 by discopotato03

[discopotato03]

Yep more searching in American sites is showing up the same thing , according to them works like this .

Back in 1983 they must have introduced ethanol to make E10 , they did mainly "splash blending" meaning add 10% ethanol volume into 90% 91 octane ULP .

In those days E10 was made in small volumes compared to other fuels so not worth playing about with . But over time 91 octane fuel became the defacto std unleaded fuel and the refiners took a closer look to see how they could save a quid - a few cents over billions of gallons adds up .

It seems the higher grade ULP base stocks go through more processes than the lower grade ones and yield ends up being less fuel . Then they worked out that if they could produce 82 octane base stock fuel they could save money and increase the yield - THEN add 10% by volume of ethanol to bring the octane rating up to 91 . They can't legally sell 82 octane fuel to the public but it makes the basis of cheaper to produce 91 octane E10 fuel .

What this means to the end user is that you lose virtually all the advantages of the ethanol ands it just becomes an octane booster for low grade cheaper to make base stock .

You may think yeah so what I don't use E10 anyway , thing is if you use locally available E70 or E85 what is the other 30 or 15% volume of these blends . If it's low grade crap then you won't get the full octane rating of ethanol which is supposed to be around 113 and your consumption won't be what it could be .

Another thing I read about is the two things that give ethanol the effective octane increase over ULP . First is the chemical difference and second is the evaporative cooling difference and depending on whos figures you believe it's conservatively ~ 30% of the difference .

Also people here say that at ~ 40% (E40) you get most of the benefit of blending ethanol and from the papers I've read the cuve flattens noticeably in the 40-50% area .

ATM I'm running a splash blend of 50/50 BP 98 PULP and E70 which works out to be about E52 or 98E52 if you like . If I can get the tune right and the consumption better then the next try is going to be 91E52 . You might think I'm mad using 91 in the blend but ..

[scotty nm35]

I don't think you are mad, in fact I think you may have a better result with 91. Octane isn't the only reason to chose a fuel... Especially when you have large volumes of slow burning ethanol in the mix. That low grade crap may just have more energy potential to help with the economy you are looking for.

Twin injector per runner setups are looking more and more interesting to me. Stock fuel tank for petrol, 40L poly tank for adding ethanol on boost. Best of both worlds.

[FJ RB25]

Interesting read all

Have a question though which may seam a bit silly

E10 should be the same Straya wide hey, my local servo sells E10 and they say it's 95 octane

Any idea what's up with that

Happy Straya day all

Edited January 26, 2014 by FJ RB25

[discopotato03]

Sorry didn't finish that last post .

Some may think I'm mad blending 91 ULP but the thing is I'm looking for most octane from least ethanol because of its lower heat production properties per unit volume .

We all have to remember that the real difference between low and high octane (91-98) ULP is the ability of the higher ones to resist auto ignition or detonation .

They don't produce any more power than 91 does if the combustion heat and pressure don't reach the detonation threshold .

I can't guess what the minimum octane requirements are in my case but it's easy to work out what you can save if you blend a brew that gets you enough octane and the petrol content is cheaper . Lets just say you need 100 octane and you want acceptable range for less dough . You work out how much ethanol you need to boost 91 ULP to 100 octane and splash blend however much E85 it takes to get you there , assume for example half half 91/E85 . Lets say 91 is 20c/L cheaper than 98 and E85 is say 35c cheaper , I haven't a clue what United E85 costs because I don't use it . So you save 20c/L using 91 and 35c/L using E85 , blending 50/50 is 6 plus 10.50 =16.5 bux .

Now someone's going to say yair but you use more of any brew that has any ethanol in it because of its lower heat potential . The papers I've read say that there is usually a sweet spot in ethanol percentages where many engines can equal straight petrol consumption or even improve it by a few small percentage numbers . It you can find that point you won't be behind consumption wise at all , also assuming your engine is capable of this .

Lastly , better fuel consumption also makes a difference to fuel system setups because ethanol in high percentages like E70 and E85 needs a fair bit higher fuel flows so expensive things like fuel pumps and injectors have to be factored in . If you can get what you need from lesser blends like say E25-E50 you don't have to use extra big injectors or pumps because you don't use really high fuel flows . Mild upgrade parts may get the job done .

Food for though , cheers A .

Edited January 26, 2014 by discopotato03

[hy_rpm]

Is it true that caltex eflex station are eventually going to be shut down ?

due to the low sales

I read on a evo forum that's why they have stop rolling them out

If that's the case might have to get my car tuned on united p100 as there's a few stations very close by and I was thinking will it be safe to use regular 98 for everyday driving and when I want be hard on it or go to the track I'll use p100 ?

As united e85 is abit of a hassle to get and caltex was on the way to work so this way will be more convinient if it's true

I'm going to be getting a retune very soon as I've changed turbo and want to know which way I have to go

Would love to stay on the caltex eflex

[hy_rpm]

Especially the caltex eflex at Pendle hill as that's what I currently use

[scotty nm35]

United are still rolling out pumps, there is another new e85 servo down the road from me on Sth Gippsland Hwy near Greens road in Dandenong.

Hopefully they ramp up in other states and take off where Caltex failed.

[hy_rpm]

Only heard caltex eflex closing hopefully not true

I would tune to united e85 if a station opened closeby or on the way to work

Close ones 20-30min away and both not on the way to work

[SiR_RB]

We need more united servos serving e85 in syd

[B-rice]

i hope thats not true only two servos in Canberra and one of them happens to be very near. Guess united should start coming into the state aswell.

[discopotato03]

Latest home brew update .

Last tank of 98E35 got 520Ks with varied driving highway and round town . BP98 BTW .

My road tuning is getting better which shows in consumption , wideband shows 0.93-1.01L mostly and 0.85-87 on load .

Next try will be 98E25 , 20-21L E70 and the rest Ultimate .

I have a quarter tank of 91E35 in ATM just to see what happens , lost very little round town so adequate at a pinch if struggling to eat .

[discopotato03]

Interesting read from a NZ site , can't link so search "98 vs E85-is e85 viable ?" .

Non related but search Megalith the Ultimate Man . Cool .

Edited February 1, 2014 by discopotato03

[tridentt150v]

To dig up an old thread............

Is anyone using Liberty E10??? its quoted at 95 octane. I use it in my shitbox 4wd and its OK. But I haven't used in the Line yet and generally always reach for the 98 - but its like 20-30 cents/litre dearer. And before everyone says go E85, I can't, the servo is in a neighbouring town, not in mine. But I do know that Caltex also sells an E10 but it has no octane label and I haven't really checked it out.

BTW I searched and this was the newest thread I could find on the topic.

[GTSBoy]

95 not good enough for a turbo Skyline.

[Cowboy1600]

Yep, keep reaching for the 98. Also I'd only buy fuel from a busy Shell, Caltex or BP. You want a busy one to ensure ready turnover of fuel.

[niZmO_Man]

Mobil E10 is advertised as 94, I used to avoid it all anyway. Still with 98.