The Complete Ethanol Thread

[SS8_Gohan]

then why run E85? - i would think there might be issues 'detuning' so much, but not sure

not sure why you'd go through the process of an E85 tune and not take advantages of making the change in the first place ??

[Dan_J]

cheaper fuel

[scotty nm35]

Even running 18:1 I never used anywhere near the same amount of fuel as 98, perhaps you could use a mix?

Just run a 20L surge tank like me.

[DCIEVE]

AFR can vary between two engines. I am not a tuner - Sean at EFI Performance (07 3801 8075) does all our tuning and we always use a combination of AFR and EGT sensors. One engine can be 750-800 degrees at 0.95 lambda whereas another can be 750-800 degrees at 0.8 lambda. It all depends on engine efficiency etc.

The rule we use for E85 injector sizing is 1200cc of fuel for every 100hp at the wheels

The thing you are missing with Methanol is the rate of evaporation and even considering its calorific content per unit of mass, methanol has a higher content of oxygen so when it burns you get a leaner mixture

Now before anyone jumps on me about injector sizing and 'oh but I made xyz hp on abc injector' etc....it is designed to be a safe level for injector sizing. With those calculations, you will NEVER have an injector size problem unless you increase the hp.

Most of these engines need 10.5:1 AFR as they come up to peak torque but seldom do we ever see that when cars come from other tuners......and that's why the engines that Sean tunes for us live a very long and healthy life.

2 things........ If the engine doesnt need 10.5:1 then it wouldnt get it. Tempretures are the decided of this one. You should probalby shoot Nissan, or ford, or toyota an email and tell their engineers that they have had it worng for years and they are wasting valuable fuel in the search of reliability.

Also your idea of high power and dans idea of high power are probably 2 differnt things.

So would you both agree 750-800degC EGT's should be the target rather than lambda? I assume these EGT's are measured at the exh port? I only have experience measuring EGT's on pulp at this stage (10.8 afr = 870+degC EGT!)

[The Dan]

So would you both agree 750-800degC EGT's should be the target rather than lambda? I assume these EGT's are measured at the exh port? I only have experience measuring EGT's on pulp at this stage (10.8 afr = 870+degC EGT!)

EGT's are dependant on the engine, the application and a whole host of other variables and it's never a case of 'rather than', it's a case of using ALL available information to come to a complete picture

[STATUS]

I run PS2000 with full flex etc.... Haltech said it can't be done, JEM said it can and proved it

yeah it works on any stand alone, yet to find one we cant use we did some haltech flex systems not long after the first link one we did a few years back.

[STATUS]

a question for the tuners or those in the know,

is it possible to have an e85 tune that consumes fuel the same as running 98 yet makes power the same as running on 98 fuel, for example not tuning for max power on e85 yet priority no.1 is fuel consumption

and power results match up to 98 fuel on max a power tune ?

reason i ask is some people with smaller fuel tanks( 40L ke70's etc) and those that want their fuel to last just as long as 98 dont opt for the e85 route

it can be tuned to give great economy, i only have one or two cars giving me massive headaches in the economy game atm... trying to get to the bottom of it as we speak but generally its not an issue, i did a whole calder track day on one 60l tank and could have driven home... same as on 98

[Lithium]

I can't see how it would be possible without being ruthless!?

[scotty nm35]

I went through 60L in 80k's at Phillip Island. No driving home on those fumes Trent.

[ARTZ]

Yeah but you drive an over boosted experimental whale Scotty..on the same day I used less than 40lt..

Not to.mention my economy on our Goulburn run, even at just under 15:1 it was better than alot of guys get on pulp

[STATUS]

I can't see how it would be possible without being ruthless!?

^^ exactly what needs to be done in certain areas, some ecu's struggle. its always going to be less kays per km but its manageable.

[discopotato03]

Probably beyond for most of us but I've read some claims that manufacturers can make engines that give as good or better consumption than ULP but they have to be designed specifically for high ethanol content fuel .

My best guess , and thats all it is , is that injection timing needs to be different with high eth fuels because of the higher volumes and rates of evaporation - and how fast ethanol burs as a vapour .

Years ago when I played with an Autronic SMC I mucked around with injection timing but without a dyno to maintain steady state loads it was very hit and miss .

I can't remember if Datalogit gives you access to injection timing .

A .

Actually last night I was speaking to someone about ethanol content and it seems the Americans have a few lower ratois available at the pump , sort of in the E30-E50 range . I sometimes think its a pity we don't get something like E40 or E50 because they are supposed to have much of the benefit of E70-E85 but using less pump/injector and probably easier to tune for better mileage .

I wonder what an acceptable trade off would be for an engine designed for ULP and used for road only .

Edited October 18, 2012 by discopotato03

[Lithium]

Probably beyond for most of us but I've read some claims that manufacturers can make engines that give as good or better consumption than ULP but they have to be designed specifically for high ethanol content fuel

My best guess , and thats all it is , is that injection timing needs to be different with high eth fuels

because of the higher volumes and rates of evaporation - and how fast ethanol burs as a vapour

I would love to see reference to the improved consumption over straight petrol - while I am no expert, I am no mug either and an immediate point worth noting is that 35% of the mass of pure ethanol is effectively oxygen which in true effect joins the "air" side of the "air/fuel ratio" when the burn gets to happening. No matter how you adjust your injector timing you won't get over the effect that you have more air to mix your fuel with and if you try mixing 14:7 parts of E85 with 1 part of air (as measured) you will be running ultra lean - the best bet I can see for making any of that up is by needing less fuel to make the same torque. That could maybe partly be done by running lean (it would have to be like 1.5lambda to match petrol @ stoich) or by making more torque for the same amount of air drawn from atmosphere.

Years ago when I played with an Autronic SMC I mucked around with injection timing but without a dyno to maintain steady state loads it was very hit and miss

Definitely torque improvements to be had by doing this, and you can get equivalent AFRs for less IDC by dialling this in too - but in comparing between fuels one would assume the setups are equivalently optimal. The issue I have with tuning ethanol is we don't have E85 at the pump in NZ so the setups I have been/will be exposed to are all using ethanol content sensor + Link and unfortunately there is no means to play with injector timing vs ethanol %, and I tend to make use of closed loop lambda which means that whatever cruise/light load lambda targets I pick have to suit petrol as well as whatever ethanol blend is in the tank.

[NYTSKY]

Fuel economy thread is in the N/A section.

[ARTZ]

If you are filling from drum you could still go without a sensor...just tune for something Simple..

For instance e66..= 2 jery cans + 20lt pulp

as long as you carry 2 cans, run it empty put 2 cans in plus 20lts your going to be right.

drove 350kms on pump e85 and figured the tank must be almost empty so filled up with caltex vortex ..iy onpy took 45lt so I was a bit worried ..but mixtures were only slightly lean on cruise..even with some heavy accel it would only hit about 13:1 at worst..i took it to wakefield on this and it was fine. Admittedly my Tune and setup is on the tamer/tolerant side, but it just shows it can be almost idiot proof of done right.

[Lithium]

Nissans are a bitch to drain the tank with, its fun being able to get 20/40litres of ethanol every now and then and just pour it in and always have some degree of ethanol blend. E40-50ish works really well and does't have so much of a fuel consumption hit, it seems left over ethanol can hang around for ages and keep your car going quite sprightly for a while.

13:1 afrs under full load aren't for everyone, give me the target AFRs and the right amount of timing to maximise on what can be got out of the mixture in the cylinder any day

[STATUS]

Probably beyond for most of us but I've read some claims that manufacturers can make engines that give as good or better consumption than ULP but they have to be designed specifically for high ethanol content fuel .

My best guess , and thats all it is , is that injection timing needs to be different with high eth fuels because of the higher volumes and rates of evaporation - and how fast ethanol burs as a vapour .

Years ago when I played with an Autronic SMC I mucked around with injection timing but without a dyno to maintain steady state loads it was very hit and miss .

I can't remember if Datalogit gives you access to injection timing .

A .

Actually last night I was speaking to someone about ethanol content and it seems the Americans have a few lower ratois available at the pump , sort of in the E30-E50 range . I sometimes think its a pity we don't get something like E40 or E50 because they are supposed to have much of the benefit of E70-E85 but using less pump/injector and probably easier to tune for better mileage .

I wonder what an acceptable trade off would be for an engine designed for ULP and used for road only .

DIrect injection can do it without issue, for us dinosaurs though no hope.

[discopotato03]

Yes I believe direct injection done properly opens quite a few doors but it also adds cost and complexity over port fuel injection .

You'd think an engine with compact combustion chambers , a higher static CR , smaller bores and a longer stroke than RB25/26 , would better suit high ethanol content fuels for road use .

Mind you I pull up behind a whallop wagon at my local Eflex pump and they were gassing up with it too . I assume it was a V8 being a very fresh looking SS so is this a factory option or something special brewed up for the Fuzz ?

A .

[scotty nm35]

The new Holden's run eflex, as do about 6 other cars in Australia.

I looked into running the 12:1 direct injection engine I have here on e85. Unfortunately the injectors seem to be very small, and larger ones aren't available. It would require adding 1000's into the plenum to satisfy the fuel requirements I think. Perhaps the direct injectors could run off the stock ecu and I could use an emanage to dump the extra fuel in with the 1000's?

The VQ25dd has very interesting pistons and chambers, like nothing I have seen before. It also cuts air to half the intake valves during cruise to help with swirl. I'm very keen to see what I can do with it, I just need a car to slot it into.

[STATUS]

The new Holden's run eflex, as do about 6 other cars in Australia.

I looked into running the 12:1 direct injection engine I have here on e85. Unfortunately the injectors seem to be very small, and larger ones aren't available. It would require adding 1000's into the plenum to satisfy the fuel requirements I think. Perhaps the direct injectors could run off the stock ecu and I could use an emanage to dump the extra fuel in with the 1000's?

The VQ25dd has very interesting pistons and chambers, like nothing I have seen before. It also cuts air to half the intake valves during cruise to help with swirl. I'm very keen to see what I can do with it, I just need a car to slot it into.

Bit like the new 86, direct injection with conventional second set.