Timing Belt Came Off, No Compression. Victim Of Fraud?

[KrazyKong]

I'm in a spot of bother at the moment and wanted to ask others if they have ever been in a similar situation. I'll try to keep this as short as possible, but I do need to explain somethings so it's possible this will be a long post. It's interesting so if you want to keep on reading, you might get a chuckle out of it, hopefully not at my expense though . Please don't be mean either.

I'm not after legal advice, so I want to make that clear. Rather I am trying to find out what process others took to get to a resolution they found acceptable.

Let's begin...

Two months ago I purchased a used car from the dealer auctions. It had things missing in the trim, various other internal things like power antenna not working, ac not blowing cold etc., but what convinced me this car was ok to take a punt on was that it had a Gates timing belt sticker under the hood showing it had litterally just been serviced less than 1000km previously. This sticker had a reputable workshop name written on it. It also had an oil change sticker on the windscreen with their name on it, and one of those business card magnets garages often have and put on vehicles after they have serviced it. So in three places and most importantly on the timing belt sticker this same workshop name was present.

Over the course of the past two months I have been restoring this car. I've gone to several wreckers and some many times over, to find all the missing bits and pieces. Slowly the car was coming together with my hard work. I had a part of the car resprayed as a bog patch on it had cracked and bent out, had the ac regasssed, steering aligned, replaced an old engine mount and spent countless hours fixing this and that. I was one day away from listing this car for sale. Now I'm not a dealer, just a regular joe trying to make a living. This was my first car I've bought with the notion of fixing it up and reselling it. On top of the purchase price of the car, I had to pay a dealer his fee to purchase this car through the dealer auctions. After all the work I had done, there was still a little margin I could make on this car. Not anymore.

The final time I drove this car I was coming home from work. It was dark, raining and not very pleasant outside. Suddenly the car lost drive. The engine was still going though. Then after a few moments, the engine stopped and I'm coasting down the motorway wondering what's just happened. So I pull over to the side of the road. I try starting the car, and I hear it turning, but it has a weak battery. It also doesn't feel like it's going to fire either. So I pop the hood. Now I'm smelling this burning smell like it's a clutch or something, but it doesn't take me long to see that the plastic timing belt housing has been ripped open and the timing belt, still in one piece is poking out of the top. Oh crap.

So the next day I ring the garage that has their name as doing this major service on my car. They are perplexed a little as they only work on one brand of car, and mine isn't that brand. Finally the guy then has his aha! moment and says oh, that's X's old car, he works for us. I enquire why their name and stickers are on the car as having done this major service and they deny ever doing it. They state that X must have done it at home and taken some of their stickers. Now whose to know if this is accurate or not. I know I've seen plenty of cars recently at the wreckers with Gates timing belt stickers on them, but none of them had anything written on the workshop/garage line. They only had date and kms fitted.

So they put X on the phone, but not before putting the phone down. They did not put me on hold, so I can hear him speaking in the background. I hear this manager guy speaking with X and telling him "we don't want this coming back on us... you tell him you did this work at home". Now a few moments ago he didn't even recall anything about this car, then all of a sudden, without even asking X "did you do this work at home, or in the workshop?", instead he tells him to tell me "you tell him you did this work at home". Finally X comes on the phone and I explain what is happened. He claims he did the work at home etc. Then tells me the engine in the car isn't the original engine. He put the timing belt on the engine before mounting it into the car. That was his claim. He then puts me on hold. Several minutes later he comes back on and his demeanor is totally different. He's no longer combative, or defensive. He states he will repair the car at his cost. He asks for my cell number, address etc. and says he'll be down first thing Saturday morning to look at it.

Saturday morning arrives, which is only the next day after I spoke with him. 11am rolls about and I'm send him a txt asking when he's coming down. He rings back and tells me it's not his problem, I should have checked it out before I bought it and to take it back to the auctions. I ring the workshop back and end up speaking with the 2nd in charge. He was a nice chap and was surprised about my conversation with X. He stated X would probably be losing his job over it and that they had told him he needed to take care of it and fix the car.

Sorry to go into so much detail guys, I'm trying to keep it short but also keeping an eye on not missing out any crucial parts of the story.

I end up speaking with X again, and he tells me to get some quotes to get it fixed as I live a good hour away from where he is. Thus he will send me the money to get it fixed, and I can get it done by someone of my choosing. So I get the quotes, send them to him. He txts me then calls me telling me he's broke and can't afford the full cost and asks I work with him. Also says he made no money on selling this car, like that's any of my concern at this point. Jump ahead and I get $700 out of the guy which he deposits into my bank account.

I go ahead and order a new timing belt kit and water pump. Then once the workshop has time available, they start work on my car. I pop in each day to have a chat and see the progress. They find out one of the bolts in an idle bearing has sheared off, and then mention that none of the bolts were at correct tension. They had never seen bolts done up so tightly and thought X had probably used a rattle gun or something other than using a tensioner to do them up to the correct tightness. They had to get in someone who drilled the bolt out and retapped it using a helix core I think it was called. Another bolt also just came right out with the thread on it, and they had to retap that one as well.

Finally yesterday all the new parts were in. I was in the workshop at the time. They had the timing belt on and looking good. So it was time to fire it up to see if it was alive. No compression. Happy days. I had Googled, and rang around to engine rebuilders before all of this to see what kind of engine I had. Apparently I had a non-interference engine, even the mechanic working on it looked it up and was convinced that was the case. Thus we all thought it just needed a new timing belt. Now it's looking like bent valves, or who knows at this point. It's got no compression so needs either top end rebuild replacing the bent valves, or additionally a new piston or a full engine rebuild.

I'm not too pleased right now about it all. I've made an appointment to see legal aid on Monday. I will be taking all my correspondence, receipts and anything related with this car with me.

I'm trying to also think of questions to ask. The goal of this post is to see if anyone else has been in a similar situation, and what steps they took to get it resolved.

At the end of the day, I feel I am a victim of fraud (this joker also wound the speedo back btw). I bought this car on the strength it had had a major service done (timing belt), which X has gone to lengths to make it seem a proper workshop had done the work. If it was done by a proper workshop, it would be covered under a warranty. I hope I get some clarification on monday and pray it's not all bad news for me.

Thanks for reading. Hoping to hear back from others who have gone down this road and make it out alive... and not bankrupt.

Edited July 14, 2012 by KrazyKong

[samuri]

I don't think you have any resolution possible since their are no contractual obligations existing with Mr X or his company and yourself.

How could they perform fraud on you when they don't even know you!?

Only the prior owner,I dont mean the Auction House, would be the person to have recourse against Mr X or the Company.

You were fortunate to get any money out of the company.

Also buying at auction means you are not covered by the trade practices act so unfortunately its Caveat Emptor( Buyer beware).Auctions are exempt the normal laws which protect consumers.

[KrazyKong]

I don't think you have any resolution possible since their are no contractual obligations existing with Mr X or his company and yourself.

How could they perform fraud on you when they don't even know you!?

Only the prior owner,I dont mean the Auction House, would be the person to have recourse against Mr X or the Company.

You were fortunate to get any money out of the company.

Also buying at auction means you are not covered by the trade practices act so unfortunately its Caveat Emptor( Buyer beware).Auctions are exempt the normal laws which protect consumers.

Interesting. It seems to me the previous owner does not have to know the person they sell an item to, to have commited fraud though. For instance, if he's wound the odometer back and falsified information on a car, and pretended a workshop has done a major service, when they have not, that to me seems like fraud.

As for not being covered because I got it at an auction, that's a bummer. I will still be going to see legal aid on Monday however. There are a few avenues to follow. For instance if the workshop is a member of the MTAQ. The many mechanics I have spoken with that I know, have all told me that no matter what the workshop is telling me, ie. they are genuinely not invovled, or are simply saying that it's one of their employees at fault, and hoping I will go away, that at the end of the day, it could still come back on the workshop due to the employee connection and having their name on my car as having done this work. I hope legal aid will know the answer to this as well.

The company did not give me any money, it was Mr X who did. And the prior owner is Mr X. He put the car through the auctions, though not in his personal name. But his conversation with me was that he sold it through them. So either a friend, family member or someone attached to him was the "person" who put the car through the auctions.

Edited July 14, 2012 by KrazyKong

[R31Nismoid]

I don't think you have any resolution possible since their are no contractual obligations existing with Mr X or his company and yourself.

How could they perform fraud on you when they don't even know you!?

Only the prior owner,I dont mean the Auction House, would be the person to have recourse against Mr X or the Company.

You were fortunate to get any money out of the company.

Also buying at auction means you are not covered by the trade practices act so unfortunately its Caveat Emptor( Buyer beware).Auctions are exempt the normal laws which protect consumers.

+1

You've really got nothing in this instance and that is the whole gamble you take with a car from the auctions. Win some, lose some really. I don't think legal aid are going to have much to say about it.

The workshop will simply say it was an employee working rogue. If any case comes up, they will likely fire him and then that's the end of that from the workshop point of view.

Generally when a timing belt lets go it means valves are going to be destroyed. Happened to many a person unfortunately and if valves are gone its highly likely the pistons have taken damage as well.

With the amount of time and effort that's going to be required to get any recourse (and its slim IMO)... You'd be better served cutting losses and just buying a 2nd hand RB25, dropping in, selling.

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

sucks to hear, but i do agree with the others.... that's half the reason cars are cheaper at auction.

win some lose some etc etc...

FWIW i had a similar prob when i bought my skyline, 1 week before i picked it up the prev owner had the 100k service done at ultratune and the muppets there overtightened every single thing on the car. the tensioner pulley was cross-threaded and forced in anyway, so whilst driving @ 6000+ rpm it snapped and the belt started slapping, luckily it hung on and didn't fully let go. it fell off when we removed the belt.... i'd say just 30 sec more idleing and i would have lost that engine. also the wheel nuts were soo tight i had to hang my entire bodyweight off a breaker bar to get them off. (that had to be deliberate)

They offered to fi it for free... i told them to get bent and just did it elsewhere @ my own cost rather than let them touch it again

[samuri]

Try this hypothetical problem.

the car in question is bought and sold by 5 people in 5 days then you buy it based on the timing belt information you saw as per your post.

will you still say the company who did the timing is still responsible?

If you say yes, then at what point do they NOT become responsible.

Unless their is a contractual relationship with Mr X ,you cant hold others responsible.That is the point you must understand.

I know it sucks but you have to take the consequences when you buy at auction.

Edited July 15, 2012 by samuri

[KrazyKong]

This car in question isn't a Skyline btw. It's another run around car I bought to fix up and sell.

Once I find out more from legal aid tomorrow I will post back and let you guys know what I found out.

Try this hypothetical problem.

the car in question is bought and sold by 5 people in 5 days then you buy it based on the timing belt information you saw as per your post.

will you still say the company who did the timing is still responsible?

Considering a correctly installed timing belt has a suggest lifespan, let's say 100,000km, and it breaks or comes off after 2500km because it was not installed correctly, then yes I believe whoever installed the belt is responsible. Especially if they went out of their way to pretend a legitimate warranty backed workmanship garage had done the work. Your example is a good one however, but let's say those 5 people all purchased the car based on this same info as well, that the car had had a major service done. The first 4 people aren't going to care if something happened as they sold the car already. Person 5 will however. A car changing hands should not negate incorrect mechanical work being done on a car, and that work being passed of as legitimate warranty backed workshop work. It's not as though you know it's been done incorrectly right away, it takes time often for dodgy work to rear it's head.

Ethically I've been defrauded, but the big question is will legal aid agree or see that by some law I have been.

[StevenCJR31]

i reckon your best shot would be to put it to legal aid and see what advice they give you and go from there, whatever the outcome is be prepared for an uphill battle and congrats for not taking the workshops BS lying down

[Iron Chef]

Your situation sucks but legally, you don't have a leg to stand on. See what the lawyers say, but buying from auctions is ALWAYS caveat emptor. You're probably lucky you got what you did out of the previous owner.

[KrazyKong]

So today arrived, and I got to work assembling all my paperwork, typed up and printed out the history of what has all happened. On the way to see legal aid, I stopped by the mechanics place who currently have my car to see if I could get a short statement of what thought had happened and what was currently wrong. Now what happened next surprised me greatly. It turned out the apprentices who had been doing the the bulk of the work re-fitting the timing belt hadn't quite got it right. Though they did use the correct alignment points on the cam gears and other places, the cam gears themselves were actually on the wrong sides of the engine. So how this previous owner managed to get the car started is beyond me still. But... right before my eyes, the head guy at the shop started the car, and would you believe it the engine started! Far out brussel sprout man. So they still have a few things to put back on the engine, and had to get the mobile mechanic out to retap a 3rd hole, I can't really complain at this point as the car is running.

I still decided to go to see legal aid and see if I could learn anything. It turns out you guys were right, by putting a car through the auction it waives any and all previous issues with a car. In fact you can go so far as to break any and every law possible when it comes to motor vehicles. Once it's sold, the person who sold it through the auctions is blameless. Unfortunately I happened to get a real jerk of a lawyer that saw me today. He was condescending and treating me like I should have known all of this. I'm not even sure why he was there, as helping people in need seemed to be the absolute last thing on this guys mind.

Now if I had bought this personally from the owner, and had asked if it had in fact had the service done at the workshop listed on the car stickers, and he said yes, then at that point I would have been able to go after him.

At any rate, even being careful in the future, it would be hard to detect issues like I've faced during the 1-2 weeks you are allowed to return a car bought from the auction. There has to be a safer way to buy things from the auction, other than buyer beware, take it or leave it.

At any rate, I'm happy the car is running. Fingers crossed there are no more issues and I can get it back soon.

[toffy]

Nope , no safer way , it's simply a gamble , if you're not willing to take the risk then your best buying elsewhere

[TREGTR]

Legal aid were't the right people. Community legal centres are a better option - they are generally free and stocked by lawyers from firms that are reputable and acting on a pro-bono basis. There are things that can be done pre court to initiate a settlement. However, having said this, the old saying "you get what you pay for" is true of lawyers also. For recommendations of specialist lawyers contact your state or territory law society.

[samuri]

You can sue me if you want to but you don't have any contract with me so your case will fail !

Likewise the only defendant you could even possibly think of suing would be whoever you made a contract with.

Buying at auction is very risky , but then again you can pick up things dirt cheap.

So as mentioned earlier many of your rights are excluded when you buy at auction. Not what you wan tto hear. Best to give up now.

good luck.

[TREGTR]

You can sue me if you want to but you don't have any contract with me so your case will fail !

Likewise the only defendant you could even possibly think of suing would be whoever you made a contract with.

Buying at auction is very risky , but then again you can pick up things dirt cheap.

So as mentioned earlier many of your rights are excluded when you buy at auction. Not what you wan tto hear. Best to give up now.

good luck.

Sorry, you seem to rely on the common law of contracts as being the only remedy... It isn't.

Refer to such legislation as the Competition and Consumer Act.

Or the CTTT for a lovely little tribunal remedy.

[samuri]

Sorry, you seem to rely on the common law of contracts as being the only remedy... It isn't.

Refer to such legislation as the Competition and Consumer Act.

Or the CTTT for a lovely little tribunal remedy.

Before proceeding could you answer the following?

Who would bring before the tribunal? It cant be someone who the buyer had no relationship with.

Are you saying the Competition and Consumer Act and the CTTT applies to Auctions!!! .

[Gts-t]

The warranty is to the owner of the car at the time the work is done

Once it is sold the warranty no longer exists