3Rd Gear Dissappeared! Help

[GTRAAH]

1 year ago I had put a 5 speed OS Giken in my R32 GTR 94" I hardly drive this car I have around 330AWKW . And this morning I took it out for a little drive punched it through 2nd & 3rd and It felt like I missed third So Im like Dam IT ill try again. So as I did I realised It slots into the 3rd gear position but the car does not recognise that its in 3rd it acts like its in neutral. So basically 3rd gear has dissapeared!!. When I put this new box in the guy told me you will NOT brake this box with 400KW and below.. Im like GREAT I Mind you I hardly drive the thing. ANyways Now that this happened what do you think it is and do you think I can ask for a free job when I go to get it fixed??

[GTSBoy]

Well....is it not obvious that you broke 3rd gear?

Edited July 14, 2012 by GTSBoy

[turboedsloth]

You won't get a free fix. Not after a year. Chances are you've broken the selector fork, or someone's reached in and stolen 3rd gear

[turboedsloth]

Actually, Can you select 4th? If so the fork will still be ok. Maybe you've broken a synchro? How much noise is the thing making? Drained the oil yet to see how much shit comes out?

[turboedsloth]

And do you think I can tell him to fix it on the house ? Because I probably only would have done 7000km on that gear box How can this happen. so new?

If it looks like it was broken due to being abused or missing the gear, i don't like your chances. If he was decent he would offer free labour an you pay for parts but he's not me

[turboedsloth]

Yes the gears are stronger, but they use standard synchros. And standard selectors. And everything else factory.

Instead of getting your panties in a twist, go see this guy you've spent heaps with and talk it over and see what he says. It will be a box out job though minimum i dare say.

And post up pics of what he finds to educate others

[R31Nismoid]

Anyone what?

You've kinda been told...

Yes the gears are stronger, but they use standard synchros. And standard selectors. And everything else factory.

Instead of getting your panties in a twist, go see this guy you've spent heaps with and talk it over and see what he says. It will be a box out job though minimum i dare say.

And post up pics of what he finds to educate others

Either way nothing is indestructible. Just remember that. Driven poorly even a OS gearset can be broken easily enough.

[GTSBoy]

If every last tooth has broken off, then things go round and round with nothing to stop them, and no noise.

[GTSBoy]

I've seen it in an ALFA gearbox, and they are essentially the same design as the Nissan boxes.

[turboedsloth]

No such thing as a stronger synchro. They are a bronze aluminium unit. Drain the oil an see if chunks of gold material come out. New synchros are about $130ea from memory

[Hadouken]

Guys I was just talking to someone and he said it sounds like you have broken 3rd gear. Now if there is no noise coming from the gear then i would off had to brake all the teeth off at the same time to make it silent, is that right???. How rare and possible is this? Honestly I cannot wait to call the shop tomo and say W T F how can this happen with this brand new box

Reason I ask is because im anxious to find out what ppl say.

So far I heard it could be the synchro or the gear, But which of these would enable no noise coming from it

Are you serious champ?! Someone already said thay and you bit his head off.

You have already gotten the problems your box could have and now you need to pack your shit up and go get it fixed.

As they have said, drain the oil and look for chunks of synchro! Not hard

[Birds]

It could be a number of things broken...teeth off the mainshaft, a selector, a synchro hub assembly etc. Can you describe better what actually happened? As in, were you changing fast from 2nd to 3rd and then put the power back on, or driving normally and just booted it in 3rd?

Every tooth???? LOL Are you Kidding me Your saying Every Single tooth has broken off in one hit and No noise what so ever is being heard aswell?

What's to mesh and create noise if there are no teeth on the cogs? On the stock box you might have stripped a couple of teeth and had them move about the box chipping other teeth and creating noise...but given you're playing big game now, with lots of torque, it's quite easy to strip a cog clean.

lets just say it is a sychro problem how much is a set of synchros? stronger ones if possible as i dont want this to happen again

There are no stronger ones. Synchros are not a power issue, they are a driving issue. There's no reason synchros won't last as long in a 1000hp GTR as they will a 300hp GTR. If you want to be able to change fast without consequence, get a dog engagement gearbox (a gearbox that doesn't use synchros, but requires firm changes and rev matching to operate smoothly - not the friendliest thing for the street).

Ok then thanks for the estimate, I was just wondering if there is no such thing as a stronger synchros then how can you stop this from continually happening or is my problem very odd like 1in 100000 type problem. For example the gears usually snap before synchros?

Because honestly I told him that I don't want to have any further problem since the box is coming out make it real strong replace all the weak bits. Now if synchros brake then that tells me that's the weakest link why isn't there such thing as stronger synchros to fit stronger gears? I find this really odd I don't want to keep pulling out the box and replacing synchros.

And if there is gold metal type chunks in the gear box shouldn't I atleast here something rattling around?

I recommend you look up gearboxes on howstuffworks and find out how they actually work...it will give you a better understanding for yourself and the sake of the workshop you are dealing with. From your questions alone I get the idea that you haven't seen inside a gearbox before, which is fine, you don't have to know this stuff...but it will definitely benefit you.

Honestly I cannot wait to call the shop tomo and say W T F how can this happen with this brand new box

Easily. In most cases a brand new gearbox is going to be no stronger than a 20 year old incarnation of it. Gears tend to be either in a "broken" or "not broken" state, thus reconditioning works.

and I dont beleive I should pay for it. ahh F*K Im so angry with this shop right now!! ARGHH. Ok I call em tomo when its apart I get photos to show

Don't be angry with the shop before you even know what has happened. People like me despise people like you, because when things go wrong the first thing you blame is everyone but you. I am not saying it is your fault, because until the gearbox is apart neither you or your workshop will know...but you have a modified car and a modified gearbox - welcome to the world of modified cars. The Fast And The Furious wouldn't be nearly as much fun if Brian's gearbox broke half way during the 60 second quartermile at the start of the film, but that's real life for you...shit breaks.

[StevenCJR31]

Did the workshop offer/give any kind of warranty on the gearbox when it was first fitted?

[Birds]

@ BIrds Nice explanation, Ok This is what happen as I am driving I really don't remember the gear because i didn't notice it at first as I was in a CBD and I don't remember changing into 3rd until i was on away from all the lights cause The area had lots of speed humps and lights and i don't use third around them. Anyways When I was in the CBD the only problem I remember I'm sure it was 1st to 2nd, But I give it and as I flicked it from 1st to 2nd I messed the timing and small crunch and high rev followed = MISSED. I thought it was 2nd to 3rd but now that i think about it the place where it happen didn't have enough room for it. HMMMM now im confused but yeh Ok it was either 1st to 2nd or 2nd to 3rd . I missed it and just free revved. So as I am exiting the CBD I try it again Now this time I definitely know it was 2nd to 3rd But it felt like I missed it again AND I'M LIKE NO WAY TWICE IN ONE DAY. I rarely do this. But I went to put it in 3rd normally and just free revved high . So yeh all of a sudden no 3rd. Thats the best way I can explain it from my memory,

And let me explain why I feel Irate.

I know for a fact EVEN IF it was the shops fault they will twist it around and make it my fault that is why I said 'Im not happy. He made a comment to me which I knew wasn't too serious but I liked it, IT WAS >>> " These new gears are HUGE man you will never brake this thing" Made me happy and thought great I don't have to worry about the gearbox for quite a while and I can move to my next thing to upgrade. But now I have to look at the gearbox again.

I know when they open it I wont be there they can basically say anything to me and I have to say YES how am i supposed to know unless I spend my whole day waiting around until they take out the gearbox and take photos of it myself then take it to someone independent & neutral and ask what do you think went wrong. Can you see the hassles involved? I don't really have this much time to waste but seems like I might have to because 90% of Business are all out to make money and deep down they don't give a SHIT about the customer I have seen it with my own eyes. And I am not made out of money even tho I seem to spend a lot on this thing. I have spoken to few people with this box and Higher HP then I have and they have had it LONGER then I have and drive it HARDER then I do and they are still perfectly fine. Like I said my stock box lasted longer. How can I NOT be angry.

Okay, well as long as you didn't hear a loud bang when you couldn't get 3rd, there's a good chance it's just a selector or synchro hub that is broken. It's usually pretty obvious when you've stripped a gear, so can't guarantee it, but it's likely not the gearset that has let go. If that's the case, fixing the issue is a lot cheaper, albeit still expensive if the workshop decide it's your fault.

It's silly of any workshop to say you won't break something. Having worked at one I would never have said that...because you give me 15 minutes and I can break any gearbox. I'm surprised they even warrantied it, because we never gave more than a turnkey warranty on anything going into high performance or modified car. As I said before, once you start modifying, expect shit to break. It's not engineered to suit a specific application like a factory car.

Look, some workshops do anything and everything they can to get out of warranty jobs. But so do customers for "at fault" jobs...and having seen it from both sides (as a customer and working for a workshop), customers do it much more because many (read: almost all) don't like to believe they are bad drivers*. They also rarely understand the technical side of things, which makes it very frustrating trying to explain the problem to someone who is only hearing it as a blame pass. Some workshops will take advantage of a customer's lack of expertise, yes - all the more reason for you to do what I suggested and read up on how gearboxes work. Then your workshop will not be able to pull the wool over your eyes or, if they are being honest, you will better understand what has happened to your gearbox when they pull it apart and show you.

*not saying you have f**ked up in this case, but I've seen so many customers say "I was just driving normally" and when you open up the box, every tooth is missing off the cluster = only one way to do that. Then you see the burnt tyre rubber underneath the chassis or the bald rear tyres when the fronts are fine!

I understand it's a hassle, but again, welcome to the world of modifed cars. Shit breaks and everyone ends up spending much more time and money than they planned to, that's just how it is. If you don't have time to do the run around then you don't have the time to own one of these cars. A business is paid to care about a customer, but within reason...if they pull out that gearbox and it turns out to be your fault that something broke, then they've wasted hours pulling the box out and who's going to cover the labour for this, that they'd be rightfully owed? The irate customer? You'd be surprised how much people want for free and feel that they are owed. I once had customers break in and try to steal their car back after agreeing a broken gearbox was their fault and telling us to "just fix it and they will pay us for it".

Anyway, get your box taken out and apart...bit of luck it'll just be a broken minor part and not the geartrain itself. My workshop would do anything it can to help customers even when it is their fault, including charging cost/minimum price for parts and labour because not all of us are evil conglomerates looking to profiteer of everyone...we are people too. Either way, keep it civil between you and the workshop because people getting pissed off tends not to resolve much.

[Duncan]

It's not what you want to hear....but $4200 for a stronger gearset, fitted, was an absolute bargain, no matter what the brand was.

I think you've been told a few times already in this thread....but I'll try again. Gearboxes have a few major parts that can break, and you have only changed the gears themselves. You are almost certainly running the original, factory selectors/forks/synchros/bearings etc. Any of those can break, particularly due to how they have been treated over the years (even before you owned the car). On the bright side they are much cheaper to replace the redoing the whole box, however it is still the labour that will sting (it takes a few hours to put box in and out).

On "whining", straight cut gears are stronger and whine. The noise is very loud and obvious. Helical gears are weaker and quiet, which is why everyone uses them. In pretty much every gearbox the forward gears are helical and reverse is straight cut. You can get quieter whining from worn bearings in the box but it is totally different to the straight cut noise. No "brand" of gear is significantly quieter or noisier.

[Duncan]

fair enough, I guess I understand part of your concern - but the truth is there are no truely "crap" brands being sold, except maybe among the bottom of the china bay stuff. PAR is a serious aftermarket brand who have been around for years and done thousands of gearsets. Yes they do feature among the warranty horror stories (like PWR for instance, and PPG for that matter) but it's not like they are an instant guarantee of failure. Having said that, obviously I agree it is dishonest to claim to supply one brand, and actually supply another.

it looks to me like you are looking for someone to blame, not how to fix your problem. All this thread/posts/comments etc and you are not even aware of what the issue is yet? If the failure is not related to a PAR/OSGIKEN/whoever supplied part, would that change your opinion about what happened?

[GTSBoy]

You do realise that it is a small world and this workshop guy may just find or get pointed to this thread and read your ranting about him and KNOW that you are talking about him? You've already done the wrong thing in that respect. Better hope you get this sorted out first. Which is what you should have done before so many posts were made.

[Ziller]

I wouldn't try to justify your obvious pain on this matter to others on here, run with what you know is right.

Yes you do need to have everything listed on your receipts and there is a lesson to be learnt, it may not say OS Giken but it dosn't say PAR either.

I don't know what kind of a person you are but I would confront him big time! F##k court, if there's no honey, getting very nasty is the only time I've had any success on these matters. Sad but true.

[Duncan]

OP's post removed at his request, he is working on this directly with the workshop first and will update later.